Required Minimum Distributions FAQs

They say that there are two certain things in life: death and taxes. And when it comes to your retirement accounts, taxes definitely come into play.

You may have thought you were saving big-time on taxes with this method. But here’s the thing: required minimum distributions mean you really only deferred those taxes. And when it comes time to pay, the amount could be surprisingly high.

We talk about what you should be doing now to prepare for that certainty, the rules you must follow, and much more, including…

• At what age you are required to withdraw money first (and how this might be changing soon)

• The different actions you should take in the accumulation and distribution phases 

• Why RMDs aren’t designed to set you up with lifetime income

• How to use your RMDs to maximize the financial benefit to you

• And more

Listen now…

Transcript

April Schoen: Hi, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Secure Retirement Podcast. I am April Schoen and I'm sitting here today with John Curry.

John Curry: Hi April.

April Schoen: I am turning the tables on John today, I've got in front of me a list of questions that we commonly get asked by our clients on required minimum distributions. So we're going to go through some of these and talk about required minimum distributions, what they are and how they're going to impact your retirement planning. All right, John, you ready to get started?

John Curry: Let's go.

April: Okay, so first of all, what is required minimum distributions, and so everybody knows we call them RMDs for short, short that it's a little bit of a tongue twister so we call them RMDs is for short.

RMDs: What Are They?

John: The financial world calls them RMDs because the financial world loves jargon. I'm going to give my answer is the smart alec cancer required minimum distributions is the government's way of forcing you to liquidate your savings so they can capture the taxes that you've been avoiding all those years. So let's break that down. The money you put into retirement accounts, you think that you're saving taxes. Most people are not saving taxes. They're simply deferring the taxes from today until the future date, which sounds good. It sounds good, feels good. But then when that future date comes, most of our clients are going "ouch," because their taxes were bigger than they thought. So I'm sure I don't know all the where you want to go here. But if not, I'll circle back and we'll talk about taxes later. But it's going to be a big issue for some people

April: It is and that's the main issue with RMD is with requirement distributions is the taxes that you have to pay, and that a lot of people in were meeting with them. They don't even want to take it out. So let's break it down. So RMDs, when you reach age 70 and a half you are required to withdraw money from your retirement accounts, and the IRS has a schedule you have to follow. So we're going to kind of walk through some of that. But that's just a very basic overview of what is an RMD.

John: I hope that while we're doing that will also talk about some of the challenges with this RMDs because folks, we have an RMD calculator so that we can actually demonstrate what happens when you're taking money. Okay to cover that now?

So let's just suppose that I'm 70 and a half and I have money in my retirement account, it's just I've got $100,000 in an IRA for 57 deferred comp, 403b, or 401k, whatever, and I'm no longer working. I'm truly retired. The first year I have to divide the account balance by 27.4. Now that works out to be 3.65%. If you're wondering how I got that you simply divide 27.4 into 100. And that equals 3.65. And people say "that's not too bad." It's not too bad unless I have my money pared somewhere and I'm only earning 2% or 3%. So now I'm having to tap into my principal, aren't I?

April: Correct.

John: So now my principal goes down, down, down. So now when I'm 75, I have to take out 4.37%, because the factor is increased to 22.9. So the key point I want to make and you can elaborate on this April is as I get older, the divisor gets higher, which means I'm having to take out... excuse me gets lower, so I'm having to take out a higher percentage of my assets. So if I suffer a downturn in the market, or the low-interest-rate environment as we have now, then my money is not going to be able to perform as well because I'm being forced to withdraw money. That's why I back in 2000-2001, Congress allowed for the divisor to change from 16 to 27.4. Now how they got 27.4? I don't know, because in the past it was based on life expectancy 70-year-old had about 16 years ahead of age 86. But they changed it because people in 2000-2001-2002, we had negative stock market returns. So, people who are being forced to take money out, we're really getting clobbered.

April: Right there, what you're referring to there is the sequence of return risk.

John: That's correct.

April: Which is going to impact all of us when we are into retirement and we're taking money out of our retirement accounts out of our investments to supplement our income or because we have to because it required minimum distributions.

John: That's correct. And if we don't plan our investments properly along the way for the accumulation phase, with equally not more important is planning for the distribution face. I tell people every day, you've done a great job of accumulating money. Now, what is your game plan in the second half of the game? Think of what?

Well, the first half of the game is working and retiring. So when you get to retirement, and the official blows the whistle, hey, you're in the second half now. Your head, two touchdowns at halftime? Who cares? Doesn't matter. The game is not over until the fourth quarter now. So your games on over to you that? Right? So you accumulate it but now you had you spend it? How do you distribute those assets? And that's my focus and your focus, especially being 66 years old. That's where I spend most of my time with lunch.

April: Exactly. Good. All right. You alluded to this already covered some of this, but why is there an RMD, John?

Why Is There An RMD?

John: The short answer is so that the government can get their tax dollars back. If you think that the RMDs are set up to provide you with a lifetime income you are sadly mistaken, is not for that... it is not guaranteeing you anything. In fact, I just described in the right market environment stock market or interest rate environment, which right now is volatile the stock market, low-interest rate the lowest we've seen in 40 years.

We're in a position where people who have their money parked in money market funds, or CDs and they're having to take required minimum distributions, they're hurting you and I've seen that dozens of times. I'm thinking of clients who came in their money market was paying what was a point one 7% time until we turned it around for but it's more important on your retirement accounts that you have guaranteed streams of income coming in, that in most cases will be much higher than our Indies, which leads to another discussion somebody will say, Well, I don't move the armies anyway. And you'll move to take out even more when Yes, because from a strategic planning approach isn't Or to do that, take it to pay the tax, then reinvest it into whatever you were doing.

April: Right, exactly. Okay.

John: So when we cover this a little bit, but when must you start taking your requirement distribution, you have to do it at 70 and a half, although right now there is a bill in Congress, the house has already passed their version of what's called the securities act. And the Senate will take it up. And then if the President signed, it would be law, this portion of it would be extending RMD is from seven and a half days, 72. That's only a year and a half. I don't understand why they're doing that. I have been preaching this for 35 years, there should not be a required minimum, they should leave you alone. If you don't want the money. It's okay. They get it when you die. But, again, is a way to get those tax dollars back that they have not gotten all those years, right. It's a great plan. By the way, if you understand what this is all about. They encourage you to maximize your IRA your 401k right so that you have the government as your partner. So Silent Partner, but they're not so solid at the end of the trip. That's right. I want my money.

April: I like the analogy of taxing on the seed or on the harvest. Yes. So the idea is if you're a farmer, do you want to be taxed on the seed? Or do you be taxed on the harvest? When you have money in your retirement accounts, you've already made the choice that you're going to be taxed on the harvest. So you put in a small amount now it's going to grow into the future. You're going to take it out in retirement and you're going to pay a larger tax later.

John: Well, but maybe not. You’re maybe like the farmer, this might be one of the few years along the way that you lose all your crops. You might lose your money, you don't have to worry about the tax. I hope that's not the case. But a lot of people in 2008 experience that they could you imagine walking into retirement in 2008 and all of a sudden you lost like some of our clients who came to us? They lost 30-40 sometimes the highest ourselves at 51%. But he was very aggressive. But our clients don't experience that they will listen to us because we say don't put all your money in that has a diversified to give you protection. Right. And this is not about investments on a bit, but it is about making sure that you can handle the distribution phase that's required on retirement accounts.

April: Okay, so, yes, you have to take required minimum distributions in the year that you turn 70 and a half. Now, the IRS will allow you to delay the first year until April 1 of the year following when you turn 70 and a half. I'm not sure why they do that, but they will allow you to do it the first year. If you do that, if you delayed the following year, just know you have to take out to RMD that year, so you gotta take out your first one and your second one. So much Is the time it doesn't make sense for people to do that. From a tax planning standpoint,

John: I don't understand why anyone would do that. I've only had a few people in my 44 years of doing this, do it that way.

April: And so how much do you have to take out? John, you talked about earlier, the number for the first year is 3.65%. That's what it equates to. The IRS does have a formula that you have to follow. There are different factors and they change every year. And we're going to get into that a little bit too. So what types of accounts are subject to required minimum distributions?

John: The short answer is pretty much every retirement account you have other than a Roth IRA. a Roth IRA does not have a required minimum distribution for the retiree. What's interesting, though, is upon your death, the beneficiary has a required minimum distribution, which is interesting. Yes, because they don't have to pay taxes on it correct. But they still are required to take money out has never made sense to me. And then what about a Roth 401k? Same thing. And the key to remember is this, we're gonna get into this in a few minutes. I know from the standpoint of how to do it. But if you have money in any type of retirement account, you've not a paid tax along the way, you can just bet that there's going to be a forced liquidation of called an RMD to make you take it out.

April: That's right. Okay, so let's say someone has a 401k. And they're still working, and they reach seventy and a half. Do they have to take an RMD?

Do You Have To Take an RMD?

John: Well, I'll let you answer that because of our friend that we had this research for her. So why don't you take that?

April: The general answer is no. If you are over the age of 70 and a half, 70 and a half, and you're still working, you do not have to take an r&d on your 401k unless you are a 5% or greater owner in the company. Now, you'll also want to pay intention to your plan document for your 401k. And in the case of any change anything that's different inside your plan. But as a general role, as long as you're on a 5% owner or more, you do not have to take your RMD and your 401k.

John: And that brings up another question because what led to this research was asking this question, should you keep all of your money in a company 401k? Or should you as soon as your plan document allows it, move some of that money to your own IRA? There's much more flexibility with IRA planning. Our friend Ed slot talks about this all the time. It is a recognize IRA expert CPA, he doesn't sell financial products doesn't care what you do. He just sells information. And he is of the opinion that getting it as much as possible into your own IRA is better. We can have that discussion another time or with people one on one if they want to have a final parameter come in here again.

April: Okay. Do you have to calculate your RMD every year?

John: You do, in fact, it's done for you by the financial institution, that the burden is on you to make sure it's done. So every now and then somebody was arriving, the company does not do that for me of the bank or credit union, Iris doesn't care. That's your responsibility. However, their institutions are now required to send you something showing you what that calculation is, right? And the reason I did that is this arbitrator, he says, we want to make sure nothing falls through the cracks. So when they send you that they're also sending it to you.

April: And so how much is your r&d is taxable, so the amount that you have to take out of your retirement accounts, how much of that is considered taxable?

John: It's all considered to be taxable with but you may not actually pay tax on so for example, most of the people who work with us and not the case but because of the standard deduction being so high now 24,000 for a couple. So if you're That's the only income you have is what you're getting from, let's say social security in your eye, right? If there's 24,000 or less, you'd pay no tax. Right? But if you start adding your IRA on top of Social Security, a pension, etc, then you may find that you're in a higher tax bracket, not lower.

April: Okay. John, we get asked this question all the time. So how do I avoid paying taxes on my RMD?

John: Well, you can't, somebody is going to pay the taxes. So you're going to accumulate money, you have to defer the tax while you're growing. And then someday, when you start enjoying the money, either you or your spouse or your kids or grandkids or in my case, great-grandkids, somebody is going to pay the piper. You're going to pay to hear the music. Now, there's an exception. There's only one exception that I know of. And that is you could use what's called a qualified charitable distribution. We've had several clients that just had one last week and he did it to give money to charity or church. And it does satisfy the RMD. So what you can do is you say, this lady, you did numbers better and I think it was 5000 was going to church and 5000 to her I think correct. 

And I remember one of my, my buddies his retired at that us professor, he had a lot of his money in his IRA go to the FSU Foundation, some to his church. And we did as a qualified charitable distribution, which means is not income to him, it goes directly to the charity. And for most people, that's the best way to get money now. Because if you are not able to have individual deductions because of the standard deduction is so high, that might be the best way to do it. So we tell everybody, let's at least look at that for you. But you have to be 70 and a half, you have to be eligible for RMD. So Do it. Because I'd people hear about it go, I want to do that. But you're 61 you can do right have to be 70 and a half or older to take advantage of that.

April: And is there a maximum amount that you can do QCD on the qualified charitable distributions?

John: Yes, sir. It is $100,000 per year. And that's now permanent and the new law for a while it was not, it was we may let you do it may not. It was pretty iffy there for a while, but now it is permanent. Nothing is permanent. Congress can go in there and change all that stuff. But as of right now, that is permanent... temporarily.

April: Temporarily, I like that. Okay, so what happens John, if you don't take your RMD?

John: Well, this is where the fun begins. Because I've had to class where this happened to the moon in my career, was an attorney who knew better. He said, I'm not going to take it... they won't ever catch me. They call it and they charged him a 50% penalty... five zero, on the amount he was supposed to take. And then let's just call 10,000. So he had to pay 5000 or pounding. The income tax on it was roughly 30%. That's $3000. So he had to pay $8,000 in taxes on the $10,000 distribution.

April: Ouch.

John: The second one was a little old lady that had been a client for a long time her husband had died. And one year she just flat forgot it. Yeah. And so, I went with her to the audit. It was cool. I wish I had a video of it, it was very good. She just said I forgot it. I didn't understand all of it. Just put it all in the drawer, my taxes. I just totally forgot it. And the lady with the IRS says, "I understand, that does happen." She waived the penalty. I'm told that now it's tougher to get that done. But that was back in were lowered in might have been like '89 or '90 somewhere in there.

April: Okay.

John: But it was interesting to see how that lit handle. I did not get to see the audit with the attorney. I wish I could have said he has since passed away too. But he was pretty cocky and arrogant about stuff. His attitude was, I'm smarter than you because I'm a lawyer. Right? Well, he wasn't smarter than they will catch up to you. That's right.

April: Okay, so this is a common question that we get is, what do you do with your required minimum distribution?

John: Well, people like me, we know that there's only one answer that you spend it on your grandkids and great-grandkids. The short answer is obviously you do whatever the heck you want with it. We have clients who will take it out and grumble and complain that happened to take it out and pay tax. And so here, this is something else for me. We have others who will use it to buy life insurance because they want to leave more money to their children and grandchildren. We have others who will donate it to other charities, which they shouldn't. They should use it QCD way, but they'll do it after the fact and tell us why you go down this. We have other people who, they'll, they'll literally just give the money away. They'll give it to their kids and grandkids.

April: I'm thinking of several clients that they take their requirement distribution every year. Thinking of one couple, they take a quarterly and they use it to go on a trip. Yes, every quarter they get their RMD payments in and they use that money to fund a quarterly trip.

John: That's a nice couple we saw last week. Yeah, there I was thinking the same folks. Very nice. But it comes down to really spend it on whatever you want. If you don't want to spend it, you want to save it, you just pay your tax on it and reinvest in something else.

April: I was thinking of the other couple, they'll take their requirement distribution and are using it to fund house projects. Yes, renovations. So it like you said, it comes down to doing what you want with it. But you can save it. You can spend it, you can reinvest it. It's up to you.

John: Absolutely. Absolutely.

April: Okay. And John, as we wind down here, one of the last questions that we go through with clients, it's probably one of the more important planning questions and conversations we have with clients. But do you have to take your RMDs from all of your accounts? So let's say you had multiple retirement accounts, do you have to take an RMD from each one?

John: The, the answer? The answer is yes. You have to aggregate all of them. So little more complicated, but let's just say you have four IRAs, you have to add up the IRAs divided by 27.4 to get the number and then once you have the number, they don't care IRS department...Treasury, they don't care if you take it pro-rata, month by month or four months... which leads to some tremendous planning opportunities if you know how to do this, I am still amazed at the number of people including tax attorneys and CPA is that I know personally because I'm past president the estate planning counsel who either didn't remember or didn't know or just flat forgot that you had that ability.

I'm thinking of a lady that I'm working with right now, in fact, a very dear friend she so went "John, totally, if I ever knew that I forgot and our gratitude just admitted that upfront, she says so there's plenty here so yeah, we can let one account keep on growing to take income from the other. She said that is fantastic because it fits perfectly with her desire. So let some of her money grow. Okay. But also, I'd like you to talk about it for bad...  because we see this every day we have clients we have money and for the three be annuities at the university system. We have clients who have 457 deferred comp plans and a high res touch on how I was gonna, I was glad you brought that up very important. It's not just all of your retirement accounts, the IRS looks at each different type of retirement account. So if you have multiple IRAs, you can take your RMD from one IRA. If you have multiple for three beats, you can aggregate those and take it from 143 B. But if you have an IRA and a 403 B, you have to take one from each, or an IRA and a 401k. You have to take one from each.

We have clients who have all that have one of each, and then there they've misunderstood the rules. They heard somebody told them about the aggregation and that they can take it from one of the others to know you have to take it from all four. And what you can do is you can move money from 401k into your IRA or have a separate IRA. Take it from one let the other one grow. As long as there are different categories you can do it.

April: Very important to pay attention to that.

John: I think I think that the key April and I say this every time we talk, you have to have a process. I plan a methodology, if you will, where you look at everything and don't overlook stuff. And that's where the retirement rehearsal that we help people with brings because we look at everything Social Security retirement accounts, your pension if you have one for one case, whatever, that it allows you to test drive this stuff before you actually have to do it.

April: That's right. Okay.

Great. All right. John, is there anything else you want to add? Thank you for taking the time today to go through some on requirement and distributions. Is there anything else you'd like to cover?

John: No, I think we covered it all appreciate you doing this. This gift gave us the ability to do this and just 20-25 minutes There's a lot more to do we could do an entire day on this and some of our seminars coming up will do it. But I would encourage people, listen, our webinars want to do them if you can come to one of our seminars come, and we cover this and more and even more topics and more detail.

April: Great. Perfect. Well, thank you so much again for your time.

John: You're welcome. Thank you for doing it.

Voiceover: If you would like to know more about John Curry’s services, you can request a complimentary information package by visiting johnhcurry.com/podcast. Again, that is johnhcurry.com/podcast, or you can call his office at 850-562-3000 again, that is 850-562-3000, John H. Curry, chartered life underwriter Chartered Financial consultant accredited estate planner, Masters in science and financial services certified in long term care, registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities, LLC, securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue securities a registered broker-dealer and investment advisor. Financial Representative of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York. Park Avenue Securities is an indirect wholly-owned subsidiary of Guardian, North Florida Financial Corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue securities. Park Avenue Securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC, this material is intended for general public use. By providing this material we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any specific individual or situation or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity. Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and may lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents or employees do not provide legal, tax or accounting advice. Please consult with your attorney, accountant and or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances. Not affiliated with the Florida retirement system. The living balance sheet and the living balance sheet logo are registered service marks of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York, copyright 2005 to 2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with or endorsed by Park Avenue Securities or Guardian and opinions stated are their own.

2019-88759 Exp 10/21

Clearing Up Medicare Misinformation

Like any government program, especially one involving millions of people, Medicare is complicated. 

What’s covered? What will it cost? When should you sign up? Which “part” should you join? Where can you seek medical care? 

Those are just some of the questions those reaching eligibility age are asking. And the thing is, the answers are different for each individual. But there are some guidelines to consider as you make your decisions.

The biggest thing to remember: Medicare does not cover everything… including some services that are super-important as we get older. But there are ways to prepare for those expenses.

We talk about that, as well as...

• The best plan(s) for those planning on international travel

• Why it’s often a good idea to get a supplemental plan

• The four parts of Medicare – and what each one covers

• Medicare Advantage plans versus “Original” Medicare

• And more

Listen now…

Transcript

April Schoen: Hi, everyone, welcome to another episode of the Secure Retirement Podcast. This is April Schoen and I'm sitting here today with John Curry.

John Curry: Hey April.

April Schoen: Glad you guys could join us today, today we're doing something a little different, instead of John's normal format of interviewing special guests, I'm going to do a little bit of interviewing him a little bit today. But we're also really going to be talking about Medicare.

So we're going to go through some of the basics around Medicare, how it works, and how it's going to impact to your retirement income planning. So you may hear a little bit of shuffling around, john, I've got some notes in front of us. Medicare, as you know, is a very complicated subject. When we have our live seminars and workshops on Medicare, they're at least an hour and a half. Sometimes we've had them as long as two hours, getting into all the nitty gritty details of Medicare.

What Is Medicare?

John Curry: Yes, and referring to that Well, we're going to do folks is just give you a overview, an overview. And we're just going to look at our seminar pages or notes that we use to do that. And some things, I'm just going to probably pop out and share some of my experiences, April, since I've been through this a lot of clients, as you know, I'm thinking about half a dozen people right now that one of our favorite favorite guys who's constantly begging about social security and medicare in a good way, but it's forced us to learn, so I will make a comment. Over the years, I've been doing for 44 years, Friday will be starting my 45th year, I've had the pleasure of helping a lot of people. And every time they come to me with a challenge or problem, and I learn it, it helps them but it helps me with my own personal planning, and it allows me to help other people. Okay, so where do you want to start here?

April: Well, first, I was gonna make a comment to John, that you're, you're 66, you'll be 67 in December. So just to get some context here, you you've already gone through this yourself, you're already on Medicare, you're collecting Social Security. So some of this that we'd go through, I think it'd be very good for you to give some of your firsthand experience about working with Medicare.

John: I'd be happy to, let me just start off with that then, and it will hit some of our notes here. So we might be able to make it even briefer. Because we could spend, like you said two hours on this, right. And we're going to try to do this in about 20 minutes. And I would encourage everyone to come either come to one of our full blown webinars, or come to one of our seminars or come in for a visit with us if they will take. But in my case, Medicare's will differ. You're supposed to enrol when you're 65 years old. But there's a provision that if you are 65, and you're covered under a group insurance plan that has 20 or more people, then you can delay it, we'll get into that later. I waited until I was 66 in a role and Medicare Part B. So we'll touch on that later. But that was the first thing for me that I I knew about it, but I didn't really understand. So when people say you have to enrol a Medicare at 65 That's true. For part A, part B it may not be true.

April: Right. Okay. Well, let's just kind of start at the top here. So John, what is Medicare?

John: Well, basically, it's a national health insurance program. I find a lot of people talk about, well, we need some type of National Health Insurance Program. Well, we have it already. And that's why some people in the running for president are saying we should have a Medicare for everybody, to care for all. It is administered by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. And as you enroll through the Social Security Administration.

April: Who is eligible for Medicare?

Who Is Eligible For Medicare?

John: The short answer is everyone over age 65. For sure, all US citizens. And if you're a legal resident for at least five continuous years in the US, then you qualify. And in certain cases, people who are under 65 can qualify, April, if they are receiving certain disability benefits from Social Security.

April: Right. Okay. Okay. So I know there are different parts of Medicare.

John: Yes. Some moving parts too.

April: Yes, exactly. So let's walk through John. And if you could talk about the four parts of Medicare,

John: Okay, well, the most common one is Part A, that's the one you have to enroll in. And when you turn 65, that code covers what we call the hospital insurance part of it. Part B is what covers the medical side of paying the doctors. So A is hospital, B covers medical doctors, then you have a part C, part see is what we call Medicare Advantage. We'll come back to that one. Part D is my Medicare prescription drug coverage. 

So the question will come down to does someone take a and b, a and d, or do they qualify or prefer to go with a Medicare Advantage plan? So let me explain the difference in those two plans. Anything you will throw in here before I do that?

April: No, you're good,

John: Perfect. So with original Medicare, which is the way I went, I chose to go with Part A and Part B, and I purchased a Medicare Supplement policy. Not wanting to do that, I actually took a look at studied CHP advantage, which is very popular in our community. But because of my desire to be able to travel and go anywhere I wanted to and not worry about a bill. And don't let the ND us now, but also foreign travel. But I wanted a plan that I walk in the door, hand over my Medicare card, my insurance card, and that's it. But for some people, some of our clients who especially work with the Florida retirement system that are covered under CHP now, they find that the CHP Advantage Plan is very good for them.

April: Now, and so CHP is for people in the Tallahassee area.

John: That is correct 

April: What about people who are under FRS but are not in Tallahassee?

John: Those people, many of those will choose the Blue Cross Blue Shield Advantage Plan. And there are others out there is so and when just full disclosure, neither April nor I are licensed to sell Medicare Supplement policies, we're not involved in that side of the business we don't want to be so that we can be clear and not have to worry about getting a conflict of interest. I tell people, if you want to meet my guy who wrote me my policy, I'd be happy to introduce you. But I'm not going to tell you to do it or not do it. That's up to you. But I'm I agree will tell you that for me. The Original Medicare approach made more sense for others as not. Now, I'd like you to share what we experience with a gentleman who had Medicare Advantage when he was traveling had an issue. And they said they've made that better. It's not quite as onerous. But would you take a minute to share that?

April: Yeah, so we have a client who lives in Tallahassee retired in Tallahassee, but they also have a second home in the mountains. And he has a Medicare Advantage plan, as John was mentioning, and so while traveling to their second home, he had a sinus infection, something along those lines and goes to the hospital, his Medicare Advantage plan, they did not cover it, they decided to deny that claim. And then he was getting bills from the hospital, you know, to cover the full cost of him going in for those services. So for him, it made more sense for him to then look at having Original Medicare with a supplement it since he's going to be doing so much travel outside of the area where he's covered under the Medicare Advantage plan.

John: And then the best way to think of this folks is think of the Advantage Plan is being outsourced to a private company. And they give you parts A, B and C in one package. That's the best way to look at it. In my case, in my wallet, I have not only my Medicare Supplement policy, that card also have something or my drug card, a different plan. And that's more interesting because each year you can change during the open enrollment. And my representative I taught just last week, we know will be changing my drug plan this year. I think it's in October. But anyway, the is complicated. But it doesn't have to be as complicated as some people make it was really two choices, Original Medicare, or Medicare Advantage,

April: Right. And I would just say to decide between these two plans, it's all going to come down to your individual situation. And so when we are having our seminars or our webinars on Medicare, I do think that's helpful. But also spending time walking through our planning process, we can walk through some of these, these issues between the two plans and talk about them. 

John: Right. And again, I'll say this, we don't claim to be experts on Medicare, or social security. But we know a lot more than most people because we read and study it. I'm reading something every week on the stuff. Sometimes daily. I want to talk just a little bit about the enrollment side to the and I mentioned this earlier that if you're in a group plan that has 20 or more people, then you don't have to automatically enrol in Part B at age 65. With Part A you do, you and I working with someone right now who delayed and they're probably going to have to pay a penalty, right. And let's talk about that just a minute. If you do not enrol in the great time frame, you may have what's called late enrollment penalties. And that means that your Medicare premiums are higher, and not just for a little while as a higher cost for the rest of your life. So this is important that when you know it's time to do it get in there. We tell people to start checking into this at least three months before you are age 65. Right. So, you know, it just we could spend a whole session just on that. But for me, it was critical that I made sure I had proper coordination of benefits. I didn't lose anything from my group plan going to Medicare Part B, right. So it's important that you enrol on time, it's important that you do it in a manner where you don't have a lapse of coverage.

April: Great. Okay, so talking about enrollment, how do you enroll in Medicare?

How Do You Enroll in Medicare?

John: Well, for me, Part A was easy. You won't believe this. I know since I love computer stuff so much, I went to the social security website. I went right into the Medicare and I walked through there, typed it in, enrolled in Part A told him that I was still under group plan, wanted to defer on Part B, and it worked. I got a phone call five days later. And the representative was very nice, very professional. Walked me through what I had done. Here's what your benefits will start, etc.

April: Okay, so you did all that online through the Social Security website? That's correct.

John: Okay. That's correct. Same thing when it came time to enroll in social security, I did same thing online.

April: Very good. Okay, so switching gears from enrollment a little bit, let's talk about what Medicare covers and what Medicare does not cover. Okay. So here's what Medicare covers. If you have a stay in a hospital, it's going to cover 100% of hospitals day for the first 60 days. Okay, for your medical services, with this is going to be your doctor visits and any sort of outpatient services. Medicare will cover 80% of Medicare, the Medicare approved amount. And it's also going to cover some preventive services like flu shot screening things along those lines.

John: And that's why you want to have backup, you know, you got to do what I did. But that's why I chose to have the Medicare Supplement policy. So that if I'm in the hospital for longer than 60 days, I've got a plan to cover that gap, right. And same thing, anything, the 20% would be covered. When I had my surgery back in February for an artery, an aneurysm repairing my rod artery, I walked in, I gave him the two cards and it was it. And then when I did it in July, for the left leg, same thing, I just I haven't gotten a bill yet. I got one. And I call them a guy, he said don't pay it, it is crossover in the mail. Don't worry about it. So the Medicare Supplement gives you additional peace and security.

April: And the Advantage plans do too, it's the Original Medicare that's covering up to that 80%. And then that's when you would have an advantage plan or you'd have a supplement to cover the gaps.

John: That's correct. That's correct. But it's also noteworthy to talk about what Medicare does not cover, you want to cover that?

April: Sure, yes, I agree. So a lot of people think that Medicare, especially when you're going into retirement, that it is now going to cover everything, anything health related, they think that Medicare is going to cover that.

John: And that's not true. And this is key what you're about to hear folks, me they will not cover even $1 of it. So when you start learning about this, you'll learn to about 20 or 25 pages of the main one, but I still got my manual over there on the shelf of all the stuff they would cover. And then this one little page about what they wouldn't cover. So they will walk them through.

April: Yes. So what Medicare does not cover it will not cover Long Term Care Services. It's not going to cover care outside of the US. It doesn't cover dental care, vision care, hearing aids, cosmetic surgery, acupuncture, other alternative care. Those are some of the things that Medicare does not cover.

John: Right. And I have people constantly saying how in the world is it they wouldn't cover dental and vision?  Those are things that make sense that should be covered.

April: And we hear I hearing aids a lot to us, especially as we get older. It's more and more common that we want to hearing aids, and they are expensive. It's not covered. You are not wrong John Curry.

John: Blame it on everybody else. Right?

April: That's right. That's right. Okay, we can now get into... John is there anything else you want to cover about overall Medicare, I know, we want to talk a little bit about planning for future costs and planning for long term care.

John: The only thing I would say April is this is not as intimidating as some people make it out to be, is truly a matter of sitting down with someone who is knowledgeable and let them look at all of your financial resources and help be coordinated, the biggest expense people are going to have in retirement is going to be health care. Right?

Repeat that the biggest expanse that you're going to have in retirement, if you retired say 65 or 66, and you live 20 or 30 years in retirement, you're going to pay a huge amount of money. $300,000, $250,000 to $300,000 is what people are projecting if you look at studies. So if it's gonna be that expensive, what the best way to structure your assets? Because the premise of the paper something and Medicare brings come out of your Social Security check, right? And if you don't collect Social Security, because some people don't, then you have to pay them directly, directly.

But I would say just be just be aware, it takes planning. And it shouldn't be something you do in isolation, it should be okay, Medicare is another type of health coverage. I need to plan for that as part of my retirement package. Because most people take it for granted while they're working and the employer is paying all their part of it. And then all of a sudden, they're blindsided. It's going to cost me how much a month? You'd have seen that? We  see people who are paying more for their health care coverage than they paid on the mortgage payment. Oh, yeah. And then we see people all the time you look at their health insurance premise plus their out of pocket costs for medications is much more than they paid on a mortgage payment.

April: I want to reiterate some of those numbers again, for those listening. So it depends on the research that you look at. But the average couple will need around $280,000 to cover health care while they're in retirement. That usually breaks down some of the research we see it breaks it down. For men and women. For men, it could be around 130,000. For women, around 150,000, again, depends on the source.

John: And let's address it-- the one you just quoted, is the Employee Benefit Research Institute, they do a great job of reporting. And they have no vested interests are not out there trying to sell financial products, mutual funds or anything. Like there's because they don't sell financial products. You'll see some conducted by insurance companies, I love my insurance companies, I love what I do love the investments better. I like the fact that you're getting it from an institute that do not directly sell my product...

April: An unbiased opinion. Three more things I want to point out about the these numbers too are those are just averages.

John: Yes.

April: So the longer you live, our life expectancy is going to have a direct impact on our cost for care.

John: Well, it's not only that, I think in terms of my dad, my dad died at age 86. So I was thinking about this over the weekend talking with a friend, as you if I live as long as my dad, and I have 20 years ahead of me. Even with having open heart surgery in 2008, and surgeries on my legs are referred to earlier, I still think that because I'll take care of myself, I have better than average life expectancy. But who knows, right? So I don't know, I don't know how long I live. But I know this if I live a long life, I better understand that I'm going to have my health insurance premiums which are going to increase because of inflation. And medical inflation is much higher rate than just what we call economic inflation.

Meaning what that the cost of health care is much more greater and faster increase then inflation is. So I have to assume and I my plan is a 5% increase at least, has been between five and seven, depending upon who you listen to the one scare people have to death. But you have to take the mindset that health insurance and retirement is important. More important than now for most of us and is going to be expensive time we have to plan for it. It's like part of your planning for your children's education.

April: That's right. That's right, good. Good. Now the numbers we were just quoting about future health care costs, I do want to point out to that that does not include costs for long term care. This is just general overall health care costs that one may see in retirement and does not include if they had a long term care need. So long term care is not covered by Medicare. It's not covered if you had a supplement policy, as well. So if you had a long term care need, you would need some sort of other assets or insurance to help cover the offset those costs.

John: Correct. And by the way, I will say I'm one who does not have long term care insurance. I took the approach that because with the life insurance I have in place other investments, so security pension plans, that if I needed a long term care situation that those resources could be used. And who knows for sure, what will be the final judge? Was that a good choice or not? I think it's good because I could use reserves from my life insurance policies to cover a lot of things even now.

April: Yes, exactly. And we always say to all of our clients, we need a plan for long term care. It may not be like you said as long term care insurance, but we need a plan. And not just for long term care, we need a plan for long term care. But we also need to plan for how we're going to pay for these health care costs and retirement.

John: Well, let's be honest about it. If we live long enough, we're going to get sick. If we get sick, we're going to need to care. Right? If we need care we gotta pay for it, then we haven't talked about caregiving. Pretty much everyone listening to my voicemail at sometime will either be a caregiver or care receiver. Right? 

Unless we're fortunate just died in our sleep. And not be a burden. I will share a personal story real quick. My mother died April this year, she was very sick, went to a nursing home on a Thursday. On Friday, good mood, sharing good laughter with some people, and died on Monday. So you don't know you may go to a nursing home and be there for 11 years like my grandmother, you may go to a nursing home will be there five days like my mom.

April: Right.

John: So we don't know. And these are things that we we don't have a crystal ball. So we can't project accurately what we can do with our retirement rehearsal that we do with clients, we can help the project. And so if you have to use this money, here's how you could apply it.

April: Well, John, thank you for taking the time today to talk about and cover some of the basics on Medicare. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we sign off?

John: I just want to share one thing that does this as part of your holistic planning, get some guidance. And again, it doesn't have to be us... April's very good at this. I'm good at it. I'm a geek about it. I love this stuff and give speeches on it. In fact, I was honoured to be part of a presentation at my Rotary Club just a few weeks ago.

And the gentleman who was presenting he says, Wait, we got an expert in the room. Let's get Curry up here. So at the end of the meeting, I was asked to go out and share my experiences. So I would emphasize don't wait to the last minute, get some guidance, get some help. And but I'd say thank you for taking the time to do it because this is way overdue to have this for part of our podcast system. So thank you.

April: Thank you. All right.

Voiceover: If you would like to know more about John Curry's services, you can request a complimentary information package by visiting johnhcurry.com/podcast. Again that is johnhcurry.com/podcast or you can call his office at 850-562-3000 again, that is 850-562-3000. John H Curry, chartered life underwriter Chartered Financial consultant, accredited estate planner, Masters in science and financial services certified in long term care. The registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities LLC securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue securities a registered broker dealer and investment advisor. A financial representative of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America New York. Park Avenue securities is an indirect wholly owned subsidiary of Guardian, North Florida Financial Corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue securities. Park Avenue securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC, this material is intended for general public use. By providing this material we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any specific individual or situation or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity. Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and may lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents or employees do not provide legal tax or accounting advice. Please consult with your attorney, accountant and or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances. not affiliated with the Florida Retirement System. But living balance sheet and the living balance sheet logo or registered service marks at The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America. New York New York Copyright 2000 thousand five to 2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with or endorsed by Park Avenue securities or guardian and opinion stated are there own.

2019-88085 Exp 10/21

Clearing Up Social Security Confusion

There is so much wrong and misguided information – not to mention confusion – out there about social security. As a result, people make bad decisions that sometimes can be very hard to recover from.

We tackled the most common questions about social security, how it affects retirement planning, and what you should be doing now to prepare for a happy and healthy future with a steady income that meets your needs.

These are decisions you can’t put off any longer because what you do now will affect your social security benefits for a lifetime. 

Tune in to find out…

• The basic calculation that determines your monthly benefit

• Balancing income tax with social security – before and after you start collecting

• The biggest mistakes people make with their social security – and how to avoid them

• The earliest – and latest – you can collect social security – and why you might wait

• The regulations regarding working while simultaneously collecting social security – and how much you can earn before you start to incur penalties on your benefits

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

• ssa.gov

Transcript

April Schoen: Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of a Secure Retirement Podcast. This is April Schoen and I'm sitting here today with John Curry. 

John Curry: Hey April.

April: I turned the tables on John today. I've got in front of me a list of frequently asked questions that John and I go through with our clients when we're talking about social security planning. These are the most common questions that our clients have for us on how did they plan for social security in their own retirement planning. So John, are you ready to get started?

John: I am. But before we do that, I will take a moment and explain to everyone your background, because you're very knowledgeable in social security retirement planning. You've learned a lot, you've been helping a lot in our class. So just share your background, please.

April: Thank you for that. So for me, I started in financial services back in June of 2010. So a little over nine years ago, and I joined John Curry's team here in North Florida Financial about five and a half years ago. My focus has primarily been on retirement planning, especially for members of the Florida retirement system. That was my experience with the other firm. And then also continuing on working here with John. So it's one of the things that I love doing is helping our clients prepare for retirement and as they're getting ready to step off into this new adventure.

John: And obviously, for me, for those who know me, it's important to me because I grew up in a state employee family. My grandfather worked for the state of Florida Department of Transportation out of the Phoenix Springs, and my dad worked with the same office. And every morning or day, they would get up and ride together to work with a local friend too. So I grew up understanding that environment, and then later discovered, April, that people were getting either no information or misinformation of how to coordinate the Florida retirement system and social security and Medicare and how do you take money out. 

So all these issues got me to the point of where I have a passion, like you, of helping members of the Florida retirement system. We have other clients who are business owners, doctors, lawyers, Indian chiefs. So we have people across the spectrum, but our number one focus is helping people with retirement income planning. 

April: Right. Agreed. Yes, very good. Alright, so let's get started and dig into some of these questions about social security.

John: Very good. And I like it to be where we have a conversation about it, instead of just me hogging the mic. Let's just share it together. So as we're going through this, folks, April may jump in, I may jump in. And if we step on each other, we'll just back off and let everyone finish their thought.

April: Sounds good. Okay, so let's just kind of start. I want to start with some of the basics around social security. So how do you qualify for social security benefits?

Qualifications for Social Security Benefits

John: Well, the short answer is you have to work for 10 years. You have to have what they now call 40 credits. So then that's basically working four quarters out of counts for a year. So 10 full years of working and you and your spouse would qualify.

April: That's right. So if you have earned your 40 credits, or you have 10 years of working history, then you and your spouse both qualified to receive social security benefits, retirement. Correct. Okay, and how are benefits calculated?

John: Well, this came up just recently, and in fact, last week, because the guy was asking about this. And it's based on the average of your highest 35 years. And if you only have 30 years of working, then they're going to plug in zeros to make up those. And when he realized that, he said, Whoa, wait a minute. So it's going to behoove me to work another five years. I said well, based on your income level you're earning now you're making the highest income you've ever earned? 

The answer is yes. And then he wanted me to calculate for him how much of a difference it would make and I said I can't do that. Social security can do it for you but I don't know how to do that. And I would be concerned it I'd be incorrect with the numbers anyway. So if you are in a position of where you're not sure, then by all means, ask them to do an audit for you and give you an estimate of your benefits.

April: Good. Okay, and when can I start collecting so security?

John: Well, the earliest you can collect it is age 62. As far as retirement benefits. Now, if you're a widow, you can start collecting at age 60. But that's a different topic. But as far as retirement benefits, the earliest I can collect it is 62. You can delay until full retirement age. We'll get into that later. And then you can leave and farther out to age 70 if you want to, but the earliest you can get it is 62.

April; Okay, very good. And on your full retirement age, how is that determined?

John: The short answer is based on how old you are. Really is based on your birth back in the 80s, when social security went through a radical change. They changed it up. So instead of some people still think that full retirement age is 65. We see that a lot, but it's not. If you were born after 1943 through 1954. Its age 66. 

If you were born after 1954. So as an example, 1955, it would be 66 in two months. So for each year thereafter, you have two months. Why they did that, I have no idea. But at age 55 it's 66 and two months, then it goes 66 and four months, 66 and 6, 66 and 8, 66 and 10. And then voila, 1960. And later, it's 67. So what I just tell people is, if you were born, after 1954 it's going to be 66 and something if you're born after 1960 is going to be 67.

April: Age 67. Good. Yes, and that makes it a little fun from a planning standpoint. But determining when your retirement age is, I was just working with some clients last night and you know, that's and his was 66 and eight months. And then hers was age 67 was her full retirement age. So trying to work through some of those things.

John: Yeah, I never talk about social security here. But let's talk about where this fits in. See social security in and of itself as a good benefit, but if you're guilty of looking at social security as a standalone micro, and you don't incorporate it in a macro planning process of some kind, I'm afraid you might make a bad decision. 

Some people should take it at 66. We'll get into that later, full retirement age, some people should wait to 70. But unless you have a dynamic, ongoing picture of what retirement looks like to you, I know in our case, we do what we call a retirement reversal. So people can see what happens, but they get 62, 67 or 70. And our clients are able, we can toggle on and off and I can see that.

April: Exactly. The client I was working with last night, his original thought process and we're going to get into this little bit later, was who takes us good at age 70. I said, Well, can we look at the alternative? What if you take it at 68 when he plans to actually retire? It's only two years. So some people may say that's not a huge difference in either benefits or how that's going to affect your overall plan. But we were able to walk through and show Okay, well this is what happens if you were, when you retire at age 68 and you take social security versus delaying it to age 70. 

John: And that's a good point. Just because 66 or 67 or 70 doesn't mean you can't take it in between. Some people should take it at 66. I did. I took my benefit. I was 66 on December 9 of last year, I started my benefit in January, and also 2pension checks coming in. So on paper, I'm retired. But as you and I both know, I'm not retired by any stretch of the imagination. I'll be like George Burnsn still working when I'm 100 years old, but doing it on my terms. 

But I think that the correct answer for people is if you don't need the money, delay it. And we'll talk later about why that's beneficial. But if you in my case, I don't need the money. But I chose to take the money because of the time value of money. I want the money today. And I'll tell you, this is not part of our questions but I'll tell you what I'm doing with part of my money. I'm spending on my grandkids. I'm doing things now. And then somewhere in your questions. I saw that second. We'll come back to that one later.

April: Yes. Okay, well, let's get back to some of the most common questions we get about social security. What is John, what's the average monthly social security check?

John: $1461, as reported by the social security website. That's not a lot of money. But on the one hand, there are a lot of people out there in this country, that's all they get. One of the reasons I'm obsessed with helping people with retirement planning is when my grandfather retired the state of Florida, he took option one, and he had social security. That's all he had. When he died, option one died with him with the state pension plan. 

All my grandmother had for the rest of her life, another 26 years, was social security. So my dad and my uncle had to help support their mom. And just, he had no life insurance. He didn't believe in it. So he left her a fixed. Now the good news is there was no debt. But you start looking at those checks. That's why I said if you look at it from the macro standpoint versus macro, you might make some bad financial decisions.

April: Right. Yeah, definitely. Okay. And if someone wanted to look at their own earnings record, and to see how much they would receive on their own record, how would they go about doing that?

Keeping Track of Your Social Security Benefits

John: Well, the easiest way is just go to the social security website, and go in and set up your own personal account. And I'm gonna defer to you on that in a minute. Because you're more comfortable doing stuff like that than I am on the computer, although I did mine. But another way that I like to do, I've been to the social security office on two occasions. 

I thought the ladies, the two ladies who helped me were very nice, very professional. I found their knowledge was pretty good. When we got into some of the more complicated stuff, they had to get back to me. One of the things that she said, You know, this inside out, don't you? I said not inside out, but I know it pretty well because of learning and studying it. But either get on the website or go to the local office and sit down with someone and get help.

April: The website, which you go to ssa.gov to create your own login and go in. You can take a look at your statement. Social security used to mail a statement. And so now you can go online and see them. And on your statement, it's going to show you if you take so security early at 62 what your benefit would be. It's going to show you what your full retirement age is and how much your benefit will be. 

And it will also show you what your benefit will be if you delay at age 70. So very importantly, those are the three numbers that we look at when we're doing our planning with clients. And now the client I was working with last night, he was able to also go on to social security, use some of their calculators and project how much his actual benefit would be at age 68. We are pretty close in our estimates of that. But he was able to fine-tune that number on their website.

John: Yeah, let's give kudos to the social security administration. They've done a good job of updating their website from time to time. But also you go there and get the trustees report, which tells, they're very candid and frank about the threats to social security going forward. And I would encourage everyone listening to this to go in and read that report. Some of it's dry, I'll admit that. You and I are kind of geeks about this because we love it. 

But folks, there's some good information on there. If you just take time, just go in occasionally and just kind of cruise through the website and just bounce around, you'd be shocked at what you learn. And if you don't want to do that, that's okay. That's why we do webinars and full-blown seminars on social security. And every client that we work with, we go through social security, Medicare, retirement income playing, we look at all that. 

Because that's part of your plan. It's not just okay to invest in an IRA or 401k, or a deferred comp, or 403B, and think that retirement is done. It has a lot of moving parts. It's like a beautiful Swiss watch. There's a heck of a lot of wheels grinding around and got to make sure they're all working together. 

April: That's right. Yeah. And today, we really wanted to cover basics and some of those frequently asked questions that we receive. When we have our seminars there are at least an hour and a half, sometimes two hours long on the topics, going into much more detail.

John: I'm gonna pick on you for a minute here. When April got the idea of doing this, we decided it made sense to take content that we've had. But do it in a manner of where you're busy. We know that keep it short and sweet to 15 to 20 minutes to give you an overview. Hopefully, what we're doing here, April, is getting people who are fulfilling their appetite to learn more. Because we see people who waited till it's too late. We still help them. But if they had done some planning, at least thought about it and got a plan of action when they got closer to retirement, those decisions would have been easier.

April: That's right. I agree. Good. One of the most common questions, John, that we get is can you work and collect social security at the same time?

Is Working While Collecting Social Security Feasible?

John: And you know, my smart-alec answer is yes, of course you can. But you might not like the end result. But yes, there are rules around it and I think that's where you're headed with this question here. And that is what are you allowed to do income-wise. Is that what you're talking about here?

April: Yes.Yes.

John: The short answer is yes, you can. If you started at age 62, and collect social security, first of all, you're getting about 75% of the full benefit. And if you earn more than $17,640, then you're going to lose $1 for every $2 over that limit. I keep it simple and tell people if you earn over $18,000 a year, then you may not want to take social security at age 62. 

Now we know people who will continue to work and they'll collect their social security because they say I'm not going to work more than I have to hurt my benefit. But the short answer is you can do that. And in my case, because I'm 66 full retirement age, I can work as much, earn as much as I want and not have any type of penalty.

April: Yes And that was my next question. At what point can you have unlimited income and still collect so security?

John: Well, you know, at our seminars we have people will tell us that was a trick question. You want to tell them about that?

April: Yeah. So we, it really comes down, it comes back to this your full retirement age, but not just the year in which you turn your full retirement age. Social security actually calculates it based on the month that you turn your retirement age. So we do throw a trick question out there in our seminars.

John: And the answer is this, December 9th last year, I turned 66. So in the month that I turned full retirement age, I could earn a billion dollars that month and have no penalty. But if I earned that billion dollars at any other time during the year, and I took some security, that'd be penalized. So the key is full retirement age folks, you can earn all you want in the month that you reach full retirement age.

April: That's right. Good. And we've already gone through some of the earnings limits. We won't spend too much time on that. But just know, if you're under for retirement age and still working, you will have, you could see a reduction in your benefits if you earn more than as John mentioned around 18,000 per year, and you're collecting social security.

John: You know one thing we didn't cover though is, what if you're in that gap? What if you're, what if you're not in the month of your full time of day and you did it center. If you earn over $46,920 then you would lose $1 for every $3 you're earning. So someone might find themselves, I'm thinking of someone right now. 

They retired, started collecting social security, but then she was given a heck of a job for 18 months doing computer software work for the state of Florida. They wanted her so badly. This was years ago. So badly they paid her 150% of what she was earning as a salary. She said I've got to come out of retirement for that. I said I don't blame you. And back then it didn't impact her pension so she could do it. And she used that money, saved it invested it. And that's how she took a lot of travel.

April: Oh, that's good.

John: A lot of traveling right up right up until the day she died. She was still traveling.

April: That's great. And speaking of trick questions, I've got another trick question for you. Aat what age do you stop paying taxes on social security?

John :Well, I gave you another smart-alec answer. Never. Because when you collect social security, it is subject to ordinary income tax. So if you have an income that's high enough to qualify for income tax to be paid on, then you have to pay tax. Now, this is a trick question in this sense. Now with a standard deduction being double, the first 24,000 of income for a couple is not taxed. First 12,000 for an individual. So if you're like that person who is just getting the that's the average of 1400. 

Now, that means a lot of people getting less, but if you're getting $1,000 a month from social security, and that's the only income you have, and you have a $12,000 standard deduction and you pay no tax on that. But very few people we see are in that position. And then there's another issue too that people don't think about, and that is the payroll tax. You have to pay social security taxes and a wage base, which is now big. It's $132,900. Medicare has no cap on it. If you earn $2 million you have to pay tax, Medicare tax. But social security is capped at 1329. It was not that way for a long time. 

And now it's index it keeps going up. So the tax amount percentage doesn't go up, but the amount they tax goes up. I remember asking Senator Graham one time about that on a flight back from Atlanta. I said, Why do you guys keep raising the taxes on social security? And he smiled, he said, Now, you know, we've not raised the tax rate at all. I said I know that. But you're raising the limit. The income limit, therefore, I'm having to pay more tax on all of my clients. But that's the way it was set up by Congress back in the 80s. And they, by the way, most people don't know this. 

Because there was no promotion big time in the media about the changes. That's when we started having to pay taxes on social security. That's when there was the income limits imposed. A lot of things happen there. That's when the 66 and two months etc. started back in the 80s. When Ronald Reagan pushed Congress to make changes. It was way overdue. Didn't go far enough and they were probably too lax. If I hat ran social security, no one, no one would ever get benefits before 65 or 66. There'll be no 62 unless somebody is disabled, but that's a different benefit. 

April: Different topics. Right. Good. Okay. I'm on to another common question that we get, John, is how do spousal benefits work? So if you are married, and if one of you qualifies for social security benefits, then your spouse also qualifies for a spousal benefit.

Spousal Benefits

John: Okay, let's take the most simple one first. In my case, I'm divorced and I was married for years, so on paper for 41 years. So she did not work outside the home very much. So her benefit was very small. So she is collecting one half of my benefit because one half of my benefit is greater than hers. Now, the way it really works is she's still getting hers. And they just simply add to that, so that she's getting half of mine.

April: Right. So for example, if your benefit was $1,000, then her spousal benefit would be $500 per month. 

John: That's correct.

April: Okay. Following up on that, what happens when one of you passes away?

John: Now that's an interesting question because many people think that the surviving spouse only continues to get one half. Not accurate. In that case in the event of my death, instead of her collect the 500, she would get 1000.

April: She gets the higher of the two.

John: That's correct.

April: Very good. Okay. And what are, so we talked a little bit earlier, 

John: By the way, we'll keep on that, because I've heard people talk about the widow's benefit. It's not just a widow, it's the widower also. So if the roles are reversed if mine were lower and hers were higher, if she died, I would collect her benefit. So as a widow, or widower benefit, want to make sure we're clear because I've had men say, I don't qualify, and I go, Yes, you do. No I don't. I'm not a widow. And I've actually had people get who did not know they qualify. Sent them back to social security and they got back pay. 

April: Good. Okay, and we talked about this a little bit, but how are social security benefits taxed?

John: Well, the short answer is up to 50% or up to 85% of your benefit is considered to be ordinary income, and you add it to what other income you have. And when you do your taxes it's just added together. So it's based on an earnings cap. We can get into detail if you want to, but it gets complicated. Rather not do it on this. But just basically, if you are at a certain threshold is 50% of your benefit is determined, considered to be taxable income. If you're above another threshold, then 85% of it is treated as ordinary income.

April: Very good. And yes, we do go into more detail about that in our webinars and seminars. 

John: Yes, and one on one. So I would encourage people to participate in all three of those.

April: Good, okay. And so we've talked about your options for taking social security. You can take it early at 62, you can take it at your full retirement age, which is determined by the year you were born. And then you can also delay to age 70. What are the benefits of delaying to age 70?

John: Well in my case, at age 66, had I waited until 70, I would get an 8% increase each year I delayed. So at age 70, my benefit would be four times X 32. 32% higher. So why would I do that? If I'm working, I don't need the money, then that might be a good way to increase my benefit for the future. There's another reason to do it. We see some people who either did not have life insurance or canceled it when they retired. 

If they don't have life insurance or adequate, then this is a good way to provide a higher survivor benefit like we talked about a moment ago. Because if I did not have life insurance, in my case, I have a lot of it because I believe in it. But if I didn't that I definitely would have delayed. So that then when I die, there's a higher survivor benefit. 

April: Yes. Very good. Okay, and probably the most common, this is the last question we're going to talk on, discuss today. And it's probably the most common question that we get. So when should I take my benefits? Should I take it at 62? Should I take it at my full retirement age? Or should I wait till age 70?

Is There a One-Age-Fits-All to Start Collecting Benefits?

John: You know, I got a wise-cracker answer. Whenever you want to start spending the money. It's also the same answer I give when people say, well, when should I start taking my retirement benefits? From IRA? 401k? Whatever. I don't know. What do you mean you don't know? I don't know. When do you want to spend it? Do you want to go enjoy the money now? Or do you want to leave it behind so someone else can enjoy it? So these trips you keep talking about taking, why don't you take your social security benefits, and start funding some of those? 

In my case, a large portion of my social security benefit goes to pay life insurance premiums. I just thought of something pretty cool about taking a benefit each month and letting it funded my life insurance, which creates a big chunk of money coming in tax rate for my family, right for my kids, my grandkids and great-grandkids. I just thought that's pretty cool. That's some of it frankly, I just spend it on my grandkids, and great grandkids. So it really comes down to what are your other sources of income? What have you accumulated? Have you done a good job of saving? 

Good job of investing? Have you done a good job with your planning? And I would tell everybody that listens. I don't care where you are at this point in your financial life. Sit down with someone, it could be us, someone else but sit down and get some guidance in coordination of distribution planning. You've done a good job probably of saving money, earning money. That's just part of the ballgame. There's a second half. I was watching a football game last night. And it was amazing. came down to one point. And I was back and forth back and forth between just went blank on the teams now, 

Oh, the Raiders and, no, excuse me Houston Texans and the New Orleans Saints. And the game is not over until it's over. So in that second half of life is called the distribution side. So really, that's the long answer. I know that if you don't have other benefits to help you, you may be forced to take social security at an earlier age than you want because you may need the money. But on the other hand, you may be able to plan and delay it all at age 70 if you want to.

April: Yes, and it like we talked about earlier. It depends on are you still gonna be working in some sort of capacity in retirement? How's your health? Yes. Do you have life insurance? Or again, back to what you were mentioning about delaying so that your spouse has a greater benefit? Those are all the things that we look at when we're helping clients decide when to take social security.

John: And you may not have life insurance, but you may have other assets. That point you've determined, you decided by choice, I'm gonna let my assets my savings account, my CDs, my 401k, my IRA, my 457 plan, my Roth IRA. So you're making that serve the role giving you income and the spouse's income. And that's okay, that's what you do, as long as it's a conscious choice. But again, our plan is to look at everything and say okay. Were you aware of this? Or you're aware of this? And then put all the pieces together.

April: Yeah. And I like in our planning too with a look at the different options and say, Okay, here's what it looks like we can show people. Here's what retirements going to look like if you retire at 66, 68, 70, 62. Whatever the situation is. And we can look at each individual situation.

John: We test drive it. You wouldn't buy a car without test driving it. Although I should say that I bought two cars without ever driving it. But usually, you would not buy a car on a test driving it. And that's what we go back full circle to what I said earlier about the retirement rehearsal, where we can sit down and so which is better, clicking on 62, 66 or 67, or 70? Let's take a look at it and see what it looks like.

April: That's right. That's one of the most enjoyable parts I think of what we do, John, is I love working with clients and showing them what retirement looks like. And helping them realize they can retire today if they wanted to.

John: Absolutely. It's powerful. And you're bringing, you're helping reduce the stress that a lot of people have, let's just be honest. A lot of people, unfortunately, don't like their work. They don't like the fact that they have to go to work. You and I are blessed. We love what we do. We love our clients, we got a great team we work with. It's not a burden. It's not a chore to go to work. I have to remind myself to unplug and go home or go do something else and take those trips that you keep pushing me to do. And free the mind a little bit. But I think we're blessed. And we get to do something we enjoy doing with people we enjoy doing it with and you know, life's good.

April: It's very good. Well, John, thanks for taking the time today to go through some of these common questions that we get on social security. I hope everyone listening to this found this helpful and impactful.

John: I enjoyed it. And by the way, we have a seminar this evening we're going to be doing and I hope that people will come join us for some of our live events. I think you'll learn a lot and it's a lot of fun. But thank you for having the conversation with me because this has been different and I like it. So thank you for turning the tables on me.

April: You're welcome.

Voiceover: If you would like to know more about John Curry's services, you can request a complimentary information package by visiting johnhcurry.com/podcast. Again that is johnhcurry.com/podcast. Or you can call his office at 850-562-3000 again, that is 850-562-3000. John H. Curry, chartered life underwriter, chartered financial consultant, accredited estate planner, Masters in science and financial services, certified in long-term care. Registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities LLC. 

Securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue Securities, a registered broker-dealer and investment advisor. Financial representative of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America New York New York. Park Avenue Securities is an indirect wholly-owned subsidiary of Guardian. North Florida Financial Corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue Securities. Park Avenue Securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC. This material is intended for general public use. 

By providing this material we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any specific individual or situation or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity. Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and they lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents or employees do not provide legal, tax or accounting advice. Please consult with your attorney, accountant and/or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances. 

Not affiliated with the Florida Retirement System. The Living Balance Sheet and the Living Balance Sheet logo are registered service marks of The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York New York, Copyright 2005 to 2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with or endorsed by Park Avenue Securities or Guardian and opinions stated are their own.

2019-87864 Exp 10/21

Do You Have a Post-Retirement Plan?

It started with a segment on a TV show many years ago… and Becky Hollis was hooked. Since then she’s been crazy about bears. Yes, those furry woodland creatures. 

What does that have to do with retirement? Well, in your Golden Years you’re not working – so what do you do instead? If you don’t have a good answer – an activity you truly enjoy – you’ll be worse than bored… it can actually negatively impact your mental and physical well-being. 

Becky has found fulfillment working with bear programs in Minnesota that help keep them in harmony with the human world. 

She gives us all the details of her work, as well as…

• Foods bears actually eat – and what they won’t touch

• The rejuvenating power of being in nature

• The unexpected benefits of following your passion in life

• What to do if you don’t have any “hobbies”

• Where to go and what to do if you want to learn more about bears and enjoy their company in person

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

• www.bearstudy.org

• www.bear.org

Transcript

John Curry: Hey folks. John Curry here for another episode of the Secure Retirement Podcast. This is going to be an interesting conversation today. Jay Wolf and I are sitting here with our friend Becky Hollis. Becky has a story that's going to blow your mind. She is involved in a bear project in Minnesota. And Becky, welcome.

Becky Hollis: Thank you,

John: Looking forward to hearing this story and dig deeper. But would you first please just share with our audience who you are, what you do in your day job, then I want to jump right into the bears that you love so much.

For the Love of Bears

Becky: I'm Becky Hollis, I work for Century Link. I have been in the telephony industry for 42 years and counting. And I am a supervisor over outside technicians.

John: So you're the person who makes all this stuff happen. So if something breaks down, you send the team out to fix it. Very good. Well, we thank you for that because you keep our phones working. Okay, let's get down to the real serious stuff here. You shared with Jay and me sometime back about you getting involved in a project following the life of a bear. Would you please, and I was I'm still intrigued about this, would you please just tell us how this all came about?

Becky: Back in 2010, I was watching the Today Show. And they had a segment on a bear biologist who was putting a den camera in a while bear's den. And they had a video of him with the bear. She was in her den, and I was hooked. There was something about that face, that bear just grabbed my heart. 

And I went on the website and started watching the videos from her live den cam. Watched during labor, watched to have that sweet cub. She only had one. And watched the den cam every day I got home from work that's the first thing I did was I put that computer on and watched them in the den until the end of March they left to go explore the world. 

John: Alright let's explore that. So first of all, some people might be asking why in the world are we having a conversation about bears and what that has to do with a secure retirement? Well, it has everything to do with it because people who are nearing retirement or in retirement or constantly asking the question, what's next? What should I be doing? And some people would see that TV show and not take action. You took action. So when you saw the show what prompted you to, as best you can explain it, what prompted you to want to learn more? What hooked you?

Becky: Well, I went on to the website for bearstudy.org, Dr. Lim Rogers is the bear biologist, and just read all about the clan that he has studied. He studied bears for over 45 years and these bears used to have radio collars on them. And he walked with them and just read all about his study and what he had done, and saw where he had courses that he offered every year where you could go stay at his research cabin and interact then observe bears. So I started planing, I started saving money, I started just reading all I could. I became a moderator for their Lily the Black Bear Facebook page and just learned everything. 

And the more I read the more I wanted to see. So I made all the plans, I could go to the bear study course. And they have a picnic all the, this thing just went wild. In no time they had over a million followers. This group of ladies got together and planned a picnic and they called it the Lily Pad Picnic after Lily the bear who had the cub. And people from all over the world descended upon Ealing Minnesota to go to this picnic. So it's just a group of people. I mean this phenomenon I can't describe it. I mean, it hit a lot of people.

John: Wow. Wow. You were telling us while we were having lunch, and Jay jumped in here with some of the questions you were asking earlier. You were talking about, actually I think you said sitting in a recliner and feeding bears right? So I got I just get this visual of you sitting out in the middle of the woods, got your recliner, you're sitting kick back and this bear comes up and says hey woman give me some food. So describe how it really was.

Feeding Wild Bears

Becky: In Minnesota, it's legal to feed wild bears. So Dr. Rogers had a steady on diversionary feeding and some of the local homeowners, they feed bears. They put out, you know, they have feeders. Some of them are the lids to garbage cans served upside down that they put feeding like nuts, they put berries, they put birdseed out for the bears. And the bears, you know, they know where there's food and they go to those houses. 

They don't bother anything and when they see people it's like, and I know this is gonna sound crazy, but it's like you're part of the environment so they ignore you. They literally just ignore you. The episode I told you about I was outside. I said a recliner but it was an outdoor chair, you know? And I was just sitting out there communing with nature. And some of the yearlings came up, and that's a bear that. 

Cubs stay with their mothers until they're 16 or 17 months old. And so then they have a family breakup. So you have all these yearlings that are separated from their mother and they're scared and they'll all get together and play and stuff like that. But I was sitting in this chair, and all of a sudden I feel something smelling of my arm. And it was one of the yearlings. And if I had not shooed him away, I think he would have climbed in my lap.

John: Just like a lapdog.

Becky: Yeah, yeah. And these are not, I want to stress, these are not tame bears. It's in the middle of the Superior National Forest. They come and go and do whatever. And you know, I never would have thought I would have done this because, you know, bears are, because of what you hear, you know? Bears don't growl. People talk about how they growl, they don't growl. They're like dogs. You know,  which ones you can be around, and you know which ones to stay clear of. They are just amazing. They are just amazing, the animals.

John: Folks, I wish you could see Becky's face as she's having this conversation. I mean it's just like, you just light up your eyes light up, you just this is a fascinating project for you. 

Jay: I find it interesting, Becky, that you were talking about how they put out feeders for the bears. And it seems like they do that to somewhat attract them, to bring them closer to where you guys are at. And living down in Florida, you know, we've had an issue here recently with bears getting into people's garbage cans, and a lot of people are kind of frustrated by it. 

Kind of elaborate more on the purpose of why they are doing that. Are they trying to bring the bears closer into human interaction to show that maybe it's okay for the bears to be close to us? Even though they get into our garbage and maybe make a mess. There's really no threat to the bears being around us. Kind of elaborate on that.

Becky: Well, it's a mixed bag about feeding. Up in Minnesota, hunters bait. They put out food for Bears. Right now, hunting season started on September 1. Now, I don't know I don't want to step on anybody's toes or anything but putting food out for a bear and waiting for them to come eat and then shoot it. That doesn't strike me as hunting. 

John: That's not hunting, that's just shooting, right? 

Becky: Right. But anyway. So you know, if it's legal to do that, it's legal for people to feed or whatever. Not everybody does it. There's a lot of people that are totally against it. There's a lot of people in this area that I'm talking about that do not feed. But Dr. Roger, he is the guy who started a diversionary feeding program. And you know, a lot of again, a lot of people agree with it, a lot of people didn't. 

But the study was to say, you know, if you take bears out and feed them in one location, they stay out of trouble. Especially yet that he has proved in him. Especially if there's a bad food year. Now you know, I don't, living in Florida. I don't know that much about the food crop here. But I know in Minnesota up in that area, the last few years, they've had a good berry crop and all and there really hasn't been a problem with bears looking for food now. 

Now they are because they've got going through the hyperphagia eating as much as they can. Because there's some that go to bed for six, seven months you know? So it's a mixed bag. It's been proven up there that they have stayed out of trouble. Now again, you'll hear stories that are opposite from what I'm saying but as being part of it reading on it, I know what I know so.

John: Becky, elaborate on what the bears eat. I know Jay asked about that earlier during lunch. What do they eat?

Becky: They eat berries. They leave certain types of leaves, Aspen leaves. They eat, of course, birdseed. You know, when you live in bear country don't put bird feeders out. They're not gonna make it. 

John: Oh, really? I didn't think about that. So if you had bird feeders out, they would come raid the bird feeder? Like squirrels.

Becky: Some of them eat, like, I didn't touch on this. But there's also a bear center in Minnesota where they have four bears that cannot be released in captivity because they were raised by humans. And they're habituated. Okay, so they are in this compound, I guess you would call it. It's a pretty big compound. It can be expanded, but there's the four resident bears. And now they eat grapes. They eat peaches. You know, fruit and stuff. But it's what people give them.

John: Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Tell us about the courses. You said you've been there I think you said three or four times. Tell us a little about the courses. And then I want to come back and circle around and talk about the takeaways from this that I've gotten today. 

Become Educated About Bears

Becky: They offer bear courses. They start the first around the middle of July and goes through the end of August because like I said earlier hunting season starts September first. And you spend three days, four nights about. And you stay at the research cabin, which is in the middle of where all the bears there's, and you basically learn about bears. 

You used to when they had the radio collars on when he hit that steady going on, they would find the bears to make telemetry because they had GPS collars on am radio collars. But they don't have that anymore. So what they rely on are the bears that come to the cabin, which are usually the big males. The females with cubs stay away from the big males because there could be issues there. And you watch them. You will watch them in their habitat.

A neighbor may call and say hey, we've got bears here, and they'll jump in the van and drive over there and watch them and you know, Dr. Rogers has been doing this for so long. You know, he pretty much knows where the bears are. Some of the time you know, but you know the bears are not sitting there just waiting for you to come. You just happen up on them. That's just like those bears that come to the house and eat. I have gone out in the woods hiking behind where they come eat, and have never seen a bear in the woods.

John: Really? I've seen him a few times well, sitting in a deer stand. We were talking earlier, I'd sit in a deer stand and watch the critters and my brother and my son get mad at me because I didn't shoot a deer. But I remember one day watching this bear just come walking down the road. Little black bear. It wasn't very old. It was just cute to watch them. But I've never had the desire to go do what you're doing sit there and feed these knuckleheads.

Becky: These are, you know, I would like to say I don't know that you hit on it. But I want to reiterate, these are black bears. They're not grizzly bears. They're black bears.

Jay: What are you guys putting in the feeders when you try to draw them and closer to you? Are you putting things like bird feed? Are there specific things you're putting out?

Becky: It's a mixture. There's hazelnuts. The bears that are there seem to prefer hazelnuts. Of course, you know they grow wild there. We'll put hazelnuts, we'll put birdseed, we'll put berries. Blueberries. They love blueberries. Blueberries grow wild up there. It's just a mixture.

John:  I must be part bear because I love hazelnuts, and I love blueberries. So I guess I'm part bear Jay.

Becky: You haven't lived until you've seen a black bear eat a peanut in the shell. It's to watch them, you know, do their tongues and all. And they spit out the husk or whatever you call it. But they don't spit out the nut.

Jay: Like eating a sunflower seed.

Becky: Yeah.

John: All right, let's talk a little bit about what you were sharing with us about being in nature. That one of the things you love about is not just the bears, but also your words, you share what you told us.

Becky: Well, it's, I laugh at people out there because I talk about humidity. About how humid it is up there. And as I tell them, you just don't have a clue. You just don't know I mean, you can actually sit outside there in the middle of the day and breathe. And you know, it's just sitting out there and hearing the wind blow. It's just so calming. That is my go-to place. That's my happy place. That's where I want to be in the summer.

John: You've told us a few times in meetings that when you retire you want to do more of that. And just be going for like a few days at a time. So fast forward when you retire. What do you see happening is, and I call the bear project, Becky's bears I call it. So when the time comes that you have more time freedom because you'll have the money freedom with retirement planning you've done, so you have more time freedom. Tell us what that looks like as far as how much time you might be there what you'll be doing with the project.

Becky: What I want to do is I want to go out there probably in late April early May it's still cold then up there. And stay till August 31. I've been there one time during hunting season and I will not be there again. It's nerve wracking. It's not fun. But anyway I am I plan on being there. I plan o volunteering anywhere I can. Any way I can. I will be volunteering for sure at the North American bear center. That's where the four captive bears are. They have a nice facility there. Pictures, videos, everything about black bears that you could ever see. 

Actually any animal in the north woods. They have moose exhibits. They have, not live moose. Oh, but you know just all the animals that are family are, you know they have exhibits for them. They do have some fish tanks with walleye and all men. And if the different types of fish. The one thing I like about Minnesota, there's only two or three types of snakes. And they're not poisonous. Or the ones, I don't think any of them are poisonous it's the ones I've seen or not. I don't think that. There's no moccasins, there's no rattlesnakes.

John: So here's what I'm hearing, you don't share the same love of snakes as you do for bears. Okay.

Becky: I'll kiss a bear but you can forget about a snake.

John: Talk a little bit about you made a comment about bears being like dogs, you know which one to be wary of talk about that. Some people listeners and say this woman is nuts. You're out in the woods with bears that are wild. They're not domesticated. So what are the dangers that you have to be looking out for? And why the heck are you doing this? 

Safer Than Popular Belief

Beck: Well, like a bear when you're getting too close, or they are trying to warn you though clack. I can't do it, but they'll play their jaws. Or they'll stop the grand a lot. And that's just them saying you're getting close. Okay, cool. Now you have not lived until you're looking at a 530 ish pound female bear with four cubs. And you're looking at her in a with a zoom lens. And she does that to you. I had to go inside. That scared me.

John: How far away was a bear?

Becky: Hmm. Maybe 20 feet. Yeah. And that's when you just know. And you know, of course, during the bear study courses, you know, and these bears have unique features. Identifying features, you know, you after you've been to the study and all you can pretty much say well that's what I would know Lily anywhere. That's my bear. But anyway, she'll do that. 

Now, I've never seen a bear in all my time up there I have never seen one take after a person. I've seen them chase another bear off because you know, the females are territorial. But I think they get a bad rap. I mean, they're not little tame things. You have to be, you have to use your head which I know you don't think I use my head. But you know, it's just you just know if you're around them enough it's like, you learn them you. this one bear that left charged me last year, she slapped a nut out of my hand.

John: Tell us more about that.

Becky: Well, I was feeding her hazelnuts. They love hazelnuts. And again, I was stupid. I probably shouldn't have.

John: So your bare hands, a hazelnut's not that big. Like a marble. So you're holding your hand. 

Becky: They've got long sticky tongues. They don't they're not like dogs. I mean, like stick that tongue out and you know, and it's sticky. But anyway, I was given it to her. And I ran out. I didn't have any more so I was just like, Okay, here's a peanut and she looked at me. I knew it was six and a half.  And she, but let me tell you if she wanted to hurt me, she could have hurt me. 

John: But she literally slapped it as if to say I don't want that.

Becky: Yeah.

John: That's funny. Do you have any videos of you with feeding the bears? That's gotta be fascinating. I want to see that sometime. That'd be awesome.

Becky: I have pictures.

John: Alright, so let's do this. Let's talk about some takeaways here. So you see this TV show, I think it said it was the Today Show. Most people would watch a show, I would add watch a show that's nice. Maybe another person watches it so I think I'll go check that out learn more and they'll mean to do they don't do it. Then you watched the show, You learn something new but you didn't stop there. You took action. What do you think prompted you seeing this bear to get this involved? Would you ever have thought when you first saw that?

Becky: I tell people I found my passion at 43/44 years old. Wow. That's what I tell people because I've never seen a man of them smile off and everyone but nothing to this extreme for lack of a better word.

John: I think you told me this was like nine years ago. So you've been keeping track of this for nine years now?

Becky: Yeah. And it's just there was just something about it and I mean, I went off on my own you know, I'm like, I didn't know all these people. I didn't know any of these people. And I just there was something, it hit my heart. I mean it's just a passion.

John: What advice would you offer anyone listening who says you know, I don't really have any hobbies? I have nothing I really want to do now much less than retirement. What advice would you offer those people?

Find Your Passion

Becky: Search for something. It, you know, I wasn't looking for this. I mean I just watched a show. And I mean, I love animals. I love dogs. But if you had ever told me that I would be going to look at wild bears I would have told you that you were crazy. But life's too short. You need to find something.

John: You know we're talking about retirement planning. We tell them make sure you're retiring to something, not retiring from something because if you're running away from something because you're miserable, you're gonna be miserable in retirement. So you're not going to be miserable in retirement because you have something that you're excited about. You have passion. You love sharing the story. 

And that's why I wanted to give you the opportunity to have this conversation and share this story because this is fascinating. And I'm looking forward to us doing an update in the future with some of the things that you do. Before we go anything you'd like to end with as far as giving people information about how to learn more about this project. How do people get involved if they want to learn more?

Becky: If you're interested, you can go to www.bearstudy.org. That will take you to the Wildlife Research Institute, which is where Dr. Rogers has these courses and all. The other website is for the North American Bear Center is www.bear.org. And there's all kinds of information there that tell you about the four bears that are there. One of them's Ted. He was raised by humans and he is the sweetest thing. He's my favorite male bear. He's the one that has kissed me.

John: You, so you kiss the bear. Kissed a bear.

Becky: But again, you know, these were bears that were raised by humans. And they cannot be released into the wild because they couldn't make it. But it's very, very interesting.

John: I love it. I love it.

Jay: Thank you, Becky, for sharing your passion for this. I think that's one of the most intriguing things about this is not just the dip of the extraordinary thing of you being involved with bears, but the passion that you have for it. 

I think that's what really comes out in this is showing your want to be a part of it. Your want to be part of the understanding between bears and humans and the relationships that they have. It's not always bad. It shows that it can be a good thing. But not only that, the bears are getting so much out of it and you are getting so much out of it as well. So it's very cool to see that.

John: Becky, thank you so much for sharing your story.

Becky: Oh, thank you.

Voiceover: If you would like to know more about John Curry's services, you can request a complimentary information package by visiting johnhcurry.com/podcast. Again, that is johnhcurry.com/podcast. Or you can call his office at 850-562-3000. Again, that is 850-562-3000. John H. Curry, chartered life underwriter, chartered financial consultant, accredited estate planner, Masters in science and financial services certified in long-term care. Registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities LLC. 

Securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue Securities, a registered broker, dealer, and investment advisor. Financial representatives of The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America New York, New York. Park Avenue Securities is an indirect wholly-owned subsidiary of Guardian. North Florida Financial Corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue securities. Park Avenue Securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC. This material is intended for general public use. 

By providing this material we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any specific individual or situation or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity. Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and may lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents or employees do not provide legal, tax or accounting advice. 

Please consult with your attorney, accountant and or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances.Not affiliated with the Florida Retirement System. The Living Balance Sheet and the Living Balance Sheet logo or registered service marks at The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York. Copyright 2005 through 2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with or endorsed by Park Avenue Securities or Guardian and opinion stated are thereof.

2019-87224 Exp 10/2/2021

Where Do Your Tax Dollars Go?

As its president, Dominic Calabro, puts it, Florida Tax Watch has been the watchdog for the state’s taxpayers for the last 40 years. A lot has happened in that time, including the transformation of Florida into one of the most important states in the union. 

That’s why, says Dominic, it’s more important than ever for public officials to be held accountable… to have an organization watching them closely to make sure they’re good stewards of public money – while not playing partisan politics.

We talk about how Tax Watch has helped save billions and how that will impact Florida’s future for its government, businesses, and everyday citizens. We also dig in to… 

• The ways they take legislators to the task – and recognize exemplary government employees

• How they’re spurring positive change in schools

• The most important issues they’re involved in today – and what’s on their radar

• Why they’re encouraging Everglades restoration

• And more

Listen now…

Mentioned in this episode:

• www.floridataxwatch.org

Transcript

John Curry: Hey folks, this is John Curry. Welcome to another episode of John Curry's Secure Retirement podcast. Today I'm sitting across the table from my friend Dominic Calabro. Dominic, welcome.

Dominic Calabro: Thank you, John.

John Curry: Dominic is President of the Florida Tax Watch. And we're going to have some conversation today about what Tax Watch does, Dominic's role, and what he sees as the future issues facing the state of Florida as well as current. So first of all, Dominic welcome. And tell us a little bit about Tax Watch.

Florida Tax Watch: Who Are They?

Dominic Calabro: John, Florida Tax Watch is the eyes and ears of the taxpayers of Florida for 40 years now. It's celebrating his 40th anniversary at the Breakers Hotel in Palm Beach, December 2, 3rd, and 4th. It was founded in 1979 by a group of prestigious influential businesses, civic leaders, notably the CEO of Winn Dixie, Jay E Davis, the founder of Winn Dixie, also the founder of tax was also George Jenkins, the founder of Publix and founder of tax watch. Yeah, the Mark Hollis, who was very active senior officer later became vice-chairman of Publix supermarkets. Since then, we've had Barney Barnett as a chairman of tax watch. But we had Phil Lewis, who was a Democrat, conserved Democrat, Ken Plant, a moderate Republican, both very well respected leaders, and a Florida Legislature.

Back in the late 70s, there was a concerted effort to look at the state of Florida, we're really we're beginning to grow, we just came out of a great serious recession of 1973 74. But there was Florida time of growing up from being like an adolescent, becoming like a full time. Since that time, we're now the third largest state in the nation. And a big reason why we are because of the turn of the previous century, late 1800s 1900s, Florida was one of the poorest smallest and least important states in the union. And it became over the period of 80 to less than 100 years, one of the most important megatrends states in the nation, the third largest, fourth fastest growing state in the nation.

And people wanted to make sure that there would be an organization that would look out for all the taxpayers, to know when it's time makes sense to raise taxes. And if you do, how do you do so in the with the least harm to the economy and do the most good for the people Florida. They want a group that was nonpartisan, they wanted to make sure Tax Watch would look out for all the taxpayers, not just the poor, that's wealthy but everybody, they sure that we help raise all ties. So over those years, tax Watch has really been a bird dog, a guide dog, especially a watchdog, it has not been a lap dog under Democratic or Republican governors, legislatures, it's served the public by finding ways... discovering to be more effective, more efficient. It's offered specific ways to save 10s of millions and hundreds of millions of dollars over the years, billions of dollars, enough to say, between $2,000 for each Florida family.

John: Let me ask a question, Dominic. People who listen to this. If they're asking themselves, why should I care about tax watch? What would your answer be to that?

Dominic: Well, because you can't have the you can't have a good state and local government if you don't have someone not only watching over but being a good steward watching over to make sure that powers held accountable that our city officials or county officials, school board members, the Florida Legislature, Governor cabinet, not only made accountable but offered ideas to help them deliver more value to serve the people Florida better To tell the truth, when sometimes the truth hurts to make sure that we're looking out for all the taxpayers and their long term interests. Like for one thing tax, which has been studying the issue of public pensions for a long time, and identified ways that we can make reforms and we did so in a bipartisan manner.

We had two big governmental candidates in 2010. Alex Sake was running for governor. She was a CFO at the time. She ran against, of course, Rick Scott who did win, but upon even after the race was over in December 2010, there was a joint press conference where they both groups held the tax watch report of major cost savings, including a massive piece of pension reform legislation that came about it caused the employees... Florida is the only state at the time that did not require it's employees to contribute anything to their retirement.

They said either go to a defined contribution plan, which we did not or have a defined benefit plan but how the employees contribute. We recommended 5% the state settled on three, the state was sued. Tax Watch came in and an amicus brief before the Florida Supreme Court and helped win a very, very narrow case by bringing over one of the more progressive justices to side 4-3 in favour of that pension reform that saved nearly $2 billion a year for all the taxpayers. Okay. It also over 30 years as well over $60 to $80 billion dollars... One would call that a good day's work.

Some of the big tax things that Tax Watch has done is we once handled tangibles tax. It's a tax on stocks, bonds and things of that nature. Tax Watch worked initially with Governor Lawton Chiles but then really ramped it up with Governor Jeb Bush and the Florida Legislature to phase the tangibles tax, tax on money, and on seniors tax phase it out without harming the core functions of government, we helped generate billions of dollars of tax reductions, while not hurting core functions in education, healthcare, environmental protection.

So you don't think of Tax Watch  as something out there for the students and academic achievement But Tax Watch actually helps improve the performance of our schools by making sure we highlight those things that work best in schools tax, which is a whole programs reward, to recognize and promote great principal leadership, particularly to family schools. So you can't have a school perform well if principles are not top-notch. The only reason why many great teachers stay in schools is that, okay... 

John: The principal is the chief executive officer of their orders,

Dominic: You're absolutely right, John.

Retirement and Education in Florida-- How Tax Watch Helps

John: Let me pause you for a second here. You got a lot of passion about this. So let's back up, let's slow you down. So the defined benefit pension plan 1975, it became non-contributory in the state of Florida. So all these years, as you know, have hundreds of clients who are FRS members, my grandfather and my father both retired from the state. Thankfully, they had pension plans, because when my grandfather died, unfortunately, he made a bad choice, his pension died with him, my grandmother had no money other than Social Security. My dad saw that mistake. So he said "I'm not doing that" and he took what was called option three, got the income for life for 22 years. And he died, and my mother lived four more years, and she died earlier this year. So those pension plans are very, very near and dear to my family, and also grew up in the side of my family, but, and to also to other people in the Florida Retirement System. I want to make something clear because I've heard people say Tax Watch was against having defined benefit pension plans. That was not the issue at all. It was, "Hey, we need to have some contribution being made by the employees to make this thing sustainable." Yes, because if they had not done that there was already an issue because of the investment world of what happened and the great recession in 2008. And if you talk with people like Ash Williams, who heads up the Board of Administration will tell you, "hey, look, because of the investment world changed. It was difficult there to make sure that the pension plan was solid." And that's an issue all across the country. Not just in state plans, but corporate plans. So I want to make that clear that the organization of Tax Watch was not against defined benefit pension plans. It was just making work for the benefit of all taxpayers. So I think that's a key point.

Dominic: Yeah, it really is John, I think what Tax Watch is also looking to do is to make sure we're looking for all the people and make sure it's fair, sustainable. But also reasonable and competitive. So there, there's still more work to be done. 

John: Talk about some of the issues that you at tax watch are following up. Before you do that talk a little bit about what happens inside the doors of tax watch. You and I have been friends for a long time. So I have some idea of the inner workings but talk about what happens with the research. Just kind of break it down as far as the division of labor within Florida tax watch, because pretty fascinating. 

Dominic: Yeah, what we do is it’s kind of like the sum of the staff of the governor's office where the House and Senate Appropriations and finance tax committees. We have a very proficient staff that our budget analysts, economists, but they're great writers. And what we do is we look at big issues and challenges that are facing the people Florida, say how can we tackle them, look at them differently, and solve a problem ways that sustainable and effective and create long term value for the people?

John: So would you say that's somewhat of a think tank approach?

Dominic: Yeah, we're very much both a think tank, a combined Think Tank, but also watchdog. And that's an unusual combination. It's harder to do that. It's easier to be like gotcha, watchdog after the fact, it's harder to be watchdog and kind of looking forward to things. We've been able to balance those two things out. So over the years, we've helped to reform like the pension system, change our tax system to make it more modern, less offensive, less onerous. We're looking now to really use some transformational changes in our schools, particularly with the tax watch principal Leadership Program, we're not only finding three elementary schools, three middle schools, three high schools, where the principles are absolutely transforming those schools they were either they were should have been F's or D schools and they're making no Bs. C+'s B's, and better. The costs are also a poor school. So we're Title One, a disproportional title one free reduced lunches are served, where English is spoken a second language with more challenges, often crime near those neighbourhoods, if you can do it there YK to do it everywhere. So we find those principles. We give them cash rewards. We give also to those nine schools, a prepaid scholarship to make sure that it's a gift that keeps on giving. We're finding out that these principles are not only transformative, but they share certain characteristics, John, and yet they're helping to both retain the best teachers and inspire greatness out of good teachers. And we think that this program and this activity are going to be was critical to ensure that Florida remains competitive, it's not just a matter, partly money is a key issue. No question. It is an issue. But money alone is not gonna solve it. And we know that leadership requires vision, character, discipline, resources, and accountability. The principles, Tax Watch's principal leader's program brings all of those things together in a transformative way and changes those kids lives in the lives of the community. So we want to see more of that occur. We're also looking at how can we take a lot of the money that's spent outside the classroom overhead. We need these support functions, transportation, food, service, janitorial, custodial, all the administrative expenses, but we probably have too much of that. And we want to take some of those expenses that are spent outside the classroom, reduce them, take those savings and put it into the classroom.

John: So how do you measure that? How do you determine what is too much over here and then put into the classroom talk about that from it?

Dominic: It's just a basic accounting, account codes and so forth. But the way to do it is really in our eyes by using competitive systems by looking at, okay, how can you, maybe a lot of these commercial activities are not really inspiring a kid to learn, does nothing wrong, it's something very important about transporting a kid safely to and from school. Yes, there is very, very important. But a lot of people can do that. Not a lot of people can inspire a child to read, inspire a child who didn't get that at home, but inspire him or her to really love learning the building blocks of learning. So really taking those resources that have spent outside the classroom making sure they're done fairly safely properly. But finding competitive systems, much of those activities can be outsourced without sending them to overseas, they have to be done inside but done in a more competitive framework, the savings than going back into the classroom,

John: Why does Florida Tax Watch care about that? Let's expand on that. So why should you as organization care about it? And why should the people listen to this sho say "I don't have kids in school? Why should I care?"

Dominic: Because really, the youth and well-educated children, communities are the future of our state. They're the future for job creation, their future for preservation of our constitutional democratic republic, we can't have informed citizens unless they're informed themselves... they are absolutely our future, but also our present. So having kids that can perform well, we want to make sure they stay in Florida, we have systems of doing that. So saving that money saves taxpayers improve students academic achievement, and it helps families and communities. So it's a win-win-win. That's what Tax Watch seeks to do on every issue it encompasses. It just takes a stronger harder lifting than others. We don't, it's like the BASF commercial, we don't make the boat motors, we just make them better.

John: That's right. Well, I was sure just last week, for some friends about thoughts on the education system. I see that when you're in school, if you and I compare notes, and J is sitting here with us, and the 3 of us sitting here in the classroom, and we share ideas, that's called cheating. So we're expected to work hard, get A's get 100 on the test ourselves. But the very minute you get into the corporate world to get on the job. Now, collaboration is critical. But most people don't have to do it, because our education system teaches you to be a rugged individual versus a team player. So I'm of the opinion now what you should do is a school system is to break the class up into five or six children per group. And they work together, they can compare notes and take the test together. And then whichever five or six has the best scores, they as a group score. 

Dominic: It's funny you say that it's just because actually there was a program called Project Child. And it really had to do with instruction, but also computers in the classroom. And so it was a way of actually taking sometimes third, fourth and fifth-grade classes together. So you had the same teacher for three years, they, the teacher got to know how Johnny and Susie learned, it could help touch them and inspire, tap into how they learn and also than how they would collaborate with other students to help teach each other. And we did that. And they were able to get better results with even larger classrooms. Now, let's say we had the class size of them and take hold that Project Child couldn't really work in the same rubric. And he could see the benefit of it.

John: This goes back a long time ago. But when I was in fifth and sixth grade, I had the same teacher both years. And it was very fascinating because you're correct. The teacher got to know how you think about how you work. And it was much better a little town called Glendale over in Northwest Florida. It was interesting. Alright, so education is one what other issues Are you guys focused on? 

Dominic: Tax Watch has done so much to get state started on criminal juvenile justice reform. It's really one of the areas that seem to have some bipartisan support, say, "Well, why is that important?" Well, what's really important about is we were starting to build so many jails. So a little over 10 years ago, Tax Watch knows that during the Great Recession, the governor at that time, Charlie Chris was going to take $325 million to build three new prisons. And he's going to take that cast to fulfil the budget deficit and then bonded, that turned $25 million would have turned into over a billion dollars with interest stories on them because of the bonding. So we said, you know, stop that. We found that they were going to cost 100 million dollars apiece to build, we're looking at 19 more. 

John: Alright time out. When you say stop that. So walk us through a little bit about when you see something as, not Dominic Calabro but as Tax Watch, the board says this is an issue we have a problem with, walk us through how you go about making an impact with the political leaders.

Dominic: Well, what we do is we conduct and publish research, we make sure it's thoughtful, as accurate. It's fair. But most importantly, we want to make sure it's impactful. So we often share to make sure it's accurate. But beyond that, and we go public with it. And we put pressure on people who share with interested parties that want to see it changed. We don't lobby, but other people do. We give it to news organizations that put pressure in different capacities. We share with House and Senate leaders, House and Senate staff members, the executive branch, their staff and the like.

So we say hey, we can do better. And we show specifically where and how through accurate, insightful, thoughtful facts and figures that are impactful in people's lives. So the recommendations we had, we were looking at building 22 prisons. Okay, so we really stopped and put a put a moratorium on that will pop to say to do that would cost $2.2 billion in cash bond and get just to cash I just had to upgrade them is 40 million a year. So 22 times it's $840 million annual operating expense. That's money that now is not going to go there.

But we'll go into early learning, healthcare education or generativity. So, tax which had to lead the state and smart justice in this criminal juvenile justice area. The next area will be looking at his continued Tax Watch in 2017 helped prompted support the senate president on the beginning of the restoration of the Everglades. So why is that important to people, you choke off the Everglades, we don't filter that water properly, you're going to starve southeast as well, Southwest Florida has too much water intrusion, saltwater intrusion that's going to ultimately starve the whole community and the whole the can't have a good economy if you have a good ecology. So we now... this governor, Governor DeSantis is a very strong proponent and will continue to work with the Everglades Foundation and others to make sure that the Everglades is actually restored in more cost-effective, thoughtful way for the preservation of generations.

John: Here's a question for you. You can't do everything. So walk us through how the board makes the determination. So what issues to take on versus say, that's nice. Somebody should do that. But we're going to pass on that one.

Dominic: Great question. So in my capacity as President/CEO, I'm also the chief staff executive. It's in our bylaws is one of the most unique independent bylaws in the country of a particular state of Florida. The CEO is responsible for formulating the finding of facts, conclusions, recommendations, not the Board of Trustees or the board of directors or the executive committee. Okay, the executive committee authorizes.

So how do they do that? Well, we look at an issue we check, is this important? Okay. Has this been independently pursued in the past? Do we have the resources or the talent to make a difference? And by what reasonable means? And do we have the capacity to see it through? When we check all those things up? We help, the executive committee helps us prioritize and authorize the conduct of it. When they do. They let the chips fall where they may. There are four things... three, four things a Tax Watch says no one else us in the country, not just in the State of Florida. It's independent research. We have the annual turkey watch report. Okay. That's a report that holds accountable for the legislature see that they spend the money the way they say it's going to be spent in a fair, equitable fashion.

John: That's always fun to see that, by the way.

Productivity Awards & 40th Anniversary

Dominic: Well, you know what, I'll tell you why we're the only one in the country that does that. It is impactful, Democratic and Republican governors alike, including Governor DeSantis has helped veto over $4 billion worth of tax watch tag, a budget item that did not go through the process... the vetting process that they wanted. So that's important. Now also one of the... sometimes we have our own board members and officers have their projects on there, what organization would put your sitting chairman's project on that list? You would for it's accepted in this past year. And our chairman was awful. I mean, he didn't like it. But he understood, he respected the integrity, he respects the thought was the reason why that particular $10 million projects was on there was that technically, it was going to take money out of the transportation trust fund.

But I have nothing but ultimate respect for our chairman who said, "You know what, they're right." Now, I'll still fight for the project course, you know, and that's fair to and that's appropriate. But so that's number one. Number two, we have what used to be the Davis Productivity Awards, and Prudential now, it's called a Tax Watch Productivity Awards, that going to be issued September 11 at FSU, from 5 to 8:30. That's a program that recognizes, that rewards and replicates tremendous excellence by our state employees and workgroups. John, that's just exactly what you're talking about. We not only find individuals doing a great job. They're saving taxpayers millions of dollars, but also working collaboration in innovative ways, adding more value than what they're expected and paid to do.

John: What you're doing is awesome. I've had the pleasure folks over the years of being a sponsor of that. And as amazing the work that you see there, that's good work.

Dominic: That's the second the other. The third thing is really this puts awards... which we took those productivity rewards program, and then shaped it towards principal leaders. The beauty that we have with Florida system that really Governor Jeb Bush really helped Craig with continue to expand on it was the accountability with some of the best data collection of schools, you know, ranking the schools and the teachers and the principles in them of any state and nation. So, so since we're data rich, we use that data to conduct the tax watch prism Leadership Awards Program that recognizes the great leaders. Now, we're also not just helping to recognize them. We're using it to give scholarships to the kids at school prepaid scholarships to one student issues nine schools each year, that would not otherwise go to school. Thirdly, we're able to take the principal Leadership Awards Program and have them teach the faculty and students that are concerned with Broward college and then hopefully take it around other colleges and possibly universities. Then the fourth part of that would be to ultimately help advise the military do the state board of education on what works, what doesn't. They are the successful CEOs in the class on the job and the class and the class activity. So use them to advise the State Board of Education and the Florida Legislature about the policy practice that really, really work. Last but not least, each year, tax watch comes up with ways to save a tremendous amount of money. So both former the current chief financial officer Jimmy Petronut, and former CFO Jeff Atwater talked to the Bonnie Houses and this is actually on the record. They both said that they've talked to Standard Ports Fiction and Movies in one of the questions why is it Florida such a good state financially?

And since there are three reasons one is our state constitution has really strict on spending, not spending money we do not have okay to we've got a lot of statutory laws. But third, each of them said this, I'm not making this up, they have it on tape. Recorded, not on tape just shows how old I am. On recorded, but the head of this group in Florida called Tax Watch, Florida Tax Watch not only gives us the recommendation to save tax dollars, not just cut, cut, but do things better, smarter, more effectively, and more impactfully. But the exit comes back and hold us accountable. And they recognize us and we get plaudits for doing it. And we get, you know, scuffles for not following it. And that helps us perform even better than we have in the past. So it allows Florida tax which makes sure that we never sit on our laurels attacks watch. But more importantly, our state local communities will never let them sit on their laurels. There are always more challenges to meet, and improvements to make and tax, which is there to make sure that the challenges today tomorrow and that effectively, efficiently and responsibly.

John: You're a nonpartisan organization, so it doesn't matter: Democrat or Republican. But from the standpoint of pressure, do you ever get filter getting pressure from either political party or our leaders?

Dominic: I mean, yes, I know. I know, the years that you've had battles with people's years, sure it goes, I've witnessed some of them. But walk me through that from the standpoint of political issues, you ever feel like you're getting pushed on and trying to fix what you were pulled and pulled in, like anybody else, anyone that's got influence, you're going to try to pull you and tug you or push you or whatever, to have you, you know, get behind that portion. And that's understandable. It's human nature, we, we always look for proper, not improper influence. So if some whole thing is if you got a good idea, or you've got facts and figures that we don't have that are important, we're all ears and will include it. What if not, they'll go look, the chips fall where they may. And we have a 40-year history of doing that, with rare rare exception, no one bats 1000. But our numbers are pretty darn high. That doesn't mean we always succeed. But one thing that's never up for grabs, is our integrity, like to budget turkey issue or anything else. That is paramount. And it's important with every organization, john, but it's critically important, because tech flush its legitimacy is the authenticity of power, making sure power is is is properly applied for the benefit of all the citizens, and all the taxpayers and all of our visitors. So Tax Watch has helped, like in this whole Visit Florida area, it's helped make sure we get more money tourism, we get our level of tours, we conclude by making sure we did research, it was well-grounded, informative, and helpful legislature appropriate money to get us from 85 million towards close 220 plus million tourists here that have added 10s of billions of dollars to our gross domestic product and improve the economy it actually reduces the tax burden on residents because our visitors help pay for the it. 

John: Well, if we didn't have that we would definitely have a state income tax was a comparable of it.

Dominic: Yes, we would. Yeah, absolutely. Tax Watch points that out. So we're looking we're not ideological, we are principled. So the principles, what can we do to add value to long term for the citizens based on the sound guiding principles of our founders of our nation, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights, the Federalist Papers, but also on the evidence, the evidence at hand if there's good evidence behind it, and sound principles of human behavior, Tax Watch is going to support it and see it through.

John: Very good, very good, but we won't get just a little bit of time left. So let's talk a little bit about the upcoming. You don't call them Davis Productivity Awards... you call them Tax Watch Productivity Awards, talk just a little bit more about that, where the different meetings going to be this year, and when, and then I will end up talking about your big event in December. So if anybody would like to join that they can attend that they can. But let's start with the productivity awards. Tell us more about that.

Dominic: This, this is our 30th anniversary, it's a great time for the productivity awards. Well, it's also the 40th anniversary of Florida Tax Watch. For the 30th anniversary of the now-named Tax Watch Productivity Awards, it's presented by Kira Solutions. We have other major sponsors, we will be giving cash rewards vary from a few hundred dollars to several thousand dollars to a deserving stake of employees in working it's throughout, say government. The awards will be presented in Tallahassee at The Kickoff on September 11. We have a governor and cabinet resolution and recognize them. We had the cabinet member Chief Financial Officer Jimmy Petronus is also he is also being recognized for their unfailing, tremendous efforts during Hurricane Michael to help bring people in their property back to some restoration of civility and, and a healthy, safe return. That will be September 11 at Florida State University. And that'll be from five to 8:30. I'd say call Tax Watch at 850-222-5052 for information about attending that event. The other one we have will be the 40th anniversary and December 2, 3 and 4, honouring Tax Watch's founders, its trustees, board members and it's unfailing supporters for four decades. So we hope that we're going to position ourselves for the next 40. So Florida's growing up a lot and Florida Tax Watch, as you heard from the chief financial officers of Florida, Tax Watch has had an important part.

John: So if you stay in this role, another 40 years that make you over 100 wouldn't it?r  

Dominic: No, that's not going to happen for a lot of reasons, you know, it's a... no, I've been very, very blessed. This is this actually is going on my 40th-anniversary tax watch as well as store in 1880. And just very, very blessed start as a research analyst, then executive director and president CEO. Most importantly, we have a very dedicated professional staff. They are really nonpartisan, in fact, I want to probably the very few that I know if any organization where in our personnel manual, we are prohibited from making political contributions of any sort. We cannot support candidates in any public manner. We want people to vote, of course, but they cannot run for office, cannot serve in you know public office, because we really want to make sure that the whole brand is truly nonpartisan.

John: So if I were an employee of Florida Tax Watch, I cannot make a political contribution.

Dominic:  Correct. You agreed to that as part of the agreement terms and conditions.

John: I did not realize it. 

Dominic: Yeah. Well, we've we've always had informally, but maybe five, six years ago, we actually would check with legal counsel, because of our unique role. And our unique brand, it's part of the brand.

John: So I think that makes total sense. I know I'm limited about what I can do because of being an into the financial world, financial regulators and put a cap on what you can and cannot do. And I did not realize that that was the case there. I like that. So that definitely makes sure that you practice what you preach doesn't it?

Dominic: You know, it's one thing to say that you're non-partisan, and obviously, legally, the organization cannot by federal law, make contributions to political candidates. But very frequently, you'll have the senior officers of, of these nonprofits you know, pick one side or the other, right, or sometimes even certain political office, we cannot we do not it's just a self imposed discipline to ensure our independence and our integrity and our and the character of our integrity. So I don't know of any organization and even academia that puts that kind of high level of integrity. 

John: But it should be if you're calling yourself somewhat Florida Tax Watch. If you're calling yourself what was this now, let me get it right... guide dog, bird dog, watchdog, but not a lap dog. Yeah, you sure as hell better have some high principals. So he did. Otherwise, you're going to not last for 40 years. All right, anything else you want to say in closing my friend?

Dominic: You know, John, I've been very, very blessed to serve in this role. To try to be a very good leader, a good steward. Part of it is the the the humility to know that no matter how good we do and how hard we work, there's still so much more out there. And I've been very blessed to meet professionals and become friends with professionals like yourself and others, that I would never have had the opportunity to have I not been blessed with the opportunity to lead Florida Tax Watch. I've met some of the best not just political leaders, some of the best civic leaders, professional men and women who really care deeply about making their communities as well as the state of Florida the best it can be. And Tax Watch is just an important instrument of our experiment in a constitutional democratic republic, we just do that with an as little small part of the world called Florida, and even each of its major communities.

We're now looking at the 2020 census. And part of that we have a whole program that's designed to make Florida count. Every city, every major city, every major community, county by county, city by city, we realize that if we do not make every Florida every person count 20 years ago, we undercounted conservatively by 200,100 people, the equivalent of a 10 years of loss of $3 billion of federal grants and aid. That's probably even the loss of possibly one congressional seat we add whoever the overage on one part and the underage on the other. If we were replicate that today, that could be 300,000 to 350,000 people larger than the size of Orlando, that would cost us at least one congressional seat, and probably $8 billion, we want to make sure make Florida count.

We're working with the leaders, the City Mayors, and City Council's the county commissions and leaders of the counties and the local communities. So that neighborhood by neighborhood, people who they are familiar with, we want to count everybody, the homeless of the disaffected everybody, because that's what the law requires. And we don't want to count anymore, no county less. The impact of that will face Florida, communities, cities, counties and the state for at least the next 10 years. And even forget count every single person, because Florida is the third fat third largest state and the fourth fastest growing, we're adding 360,000 new people year, within three years alone, we're going to have over a million people in Florida from other states that are still getting the money from the States, because they're using the 2022 Central census, when it's 23, or 2025 will have you know, one to 2 million more people here not get the money. So it's really important. Who thinks like that? Florida Tax Watch.

John: I want to add another question to the thing here because what you just hit is something else from the standpoint of the growth of Florida. Some people move here from other states, and they say, hey, I've got mine now, don't anybody else come in, just lock the gates. But you just threw out a number 360,000 people a year coming here. That's 30,000 people month. So how does Tax Watch look at the growth of Florida and how do we sustain growth and also do it in a way that doesn't bankrupt us? Let's talk about that for a minute. 

Dominic: There are several things to do. First, what we would Florida does is continue to keep a good fiscal policy, keep our taxes low competitive, but also make sure we spend monies, preserving those things that are most important that make Florida special. 

Our rivers, our lakes, that some Lake Okeechobee and the Everglades, but all of the history of our major lake, make sure that the water clean, make sure that we are preparing for as rising sea levels occur, that we do something to prevent the erosion of our critical coastline, to make sure that we have good transportation systems, we invest in the infrastructure. That's why having the leaders come to speak at any lead will be very important. So I think the most important thing is that we have to be looking at ahead, not just behind what we've done. Because of Florida, as great as it is, and we have great things to build upon. We're only good as our weakest link. And we're only good as our continued commitment. So I say education is critically important. Kindergarten to 12th grade early learning is critical to start that, but it's also important throughout our colleges and universities to need to kind of support as well as accountability but financial support to make sure we not only educate people but also make sure they come back and stay here and contribute to the economy.

John: Right. Dominic Calabro with Florida Tax Watch. Thank you for your time, my friend.

Dominic: Thank you, my friend.

John: We will do this again. The next time we do it. I want to get into some more specifics about what are some of the issues that you're focused on currently in the future. I think we just barely scratched the surface in this 40 minutes today. So, folks, I hope you've enjoyed this and Dominic if somebody wants to know more about Florida Tax Watch, tell them who to call and where to get the website.

Dominic: Website is www.Floridataxwatch.org. Phone numbers 850-222-5052.

John: Thank you for your time today.

Dominic: Thank you.

If you would like to know more about John Curry's services, you can request a complimentary information package by visiting johnhcurry.com/podcast. Again that is johnhcurry.com/podcast. Or you can call his office at 850-562-3000 again, that is 850-562-3000. John H. Curry, chartered life underwriter, chartered financial consultant, accredited estate planner, Masters in science and financial services, certified in long-term care. Registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities LLC. 

Securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue Securities, a registered broker-dealer and investment advisor. Financial representative of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America New York New York. Park Avenue Securities is an indirect wholly-owned subsidiary of Guardian. North Florida Financial Corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue Securities. Park Avenue Securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC. This material is intended for general public use. 

By providing this material we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any specific individual or situation or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity. Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and they lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents or employees do not provide legal, tax or accounting advice. Please consult with your attorney, accountant and/or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances. 

Not affiliated with the Florida Retirement System. The Living Balance Sheet and the Living Balance Sheet logo are registered service marks of The Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York New York, Copyright 2005 to 2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with or endorsed by Park Avenue Securities or Guardian and opinions stated are their own.

2019-86927 Exp 9/30/2021

An Arms-Length Look at Retirement Planning

In the retirement planning world, Moshe Milevsky, author, professor at Toronto’s York University, and consultant, is known as someone who takes some stances that go against the grain, to put it mildly.

But it’s not just for the sake of being controversial. He thinks deeply about ways people can live their best lives when they retire. And he says the current system, not to mention conventional wisdom, actually makes it more difficult than it has to be to reach that goal… and he says the problem is getting worse.

We talk about…

• Why the age on your birth certificate is just a number
• The dangers of correlated investments
• Social Security and why it shouldn’t start at 62
• What should be the real determining factor in whether you buy an annuity
• And much more

Listen now...

Episode Transcript:

John Curry: Hey, folks. John Curry here. Welcome to another episode of The Secure Retirement Podcast. I have the pleasure of sitting next to a gentleman that I have been reading his material forever. I have every book he's written except his newest one, and I will have it within a couple of days. I'm sitting here with Moshe Milevsky, PhD. This guy is a brilliant man when it comes to understanding longevity issues and how to plan for retirement. Moshe, it's a pleasure sitting here with you.

Moshe Milevsky: Thank you very much. It's a huge pleasure to be here.

John Curry: Today, you gave a presentation. We're sitting in Chicago and at The Park Avenue Securities Retirement and Masters Summit. Yesterday, we were over at the University of Chicago. The School of Business was awesome. I wanted you to share with our listeners, Moshe, some of what you were sharing with our group today. Full disclosure, folks, we're sitting here with a bourbon in our hands. We've had a couple of them already and I've grabbed this guy at eight o'clock in the evening and he is willing to share his time with us. So please, Moshe, tell us who you are and what you specialize in and share with my audience some things they can use to help improve their retirement.

Moshe Milevsky: Well, John, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to appear on your podcast. It's a great honor and I'm humbled by this request that you asked me to chat with you. My day job, as I explained to the audience today, is I am a professor. I am a teacher at a school at York University in Toronto, Canada. I teach undergraduates, graduates, and executives in the Business School courses on finance, insurance, investing, retirement planning, pensions, and our graduates go out and work in the financial services industry. Many of them end up being financial planners and advisors like yourself. Those are the people that I teach and that's my day job. The university allows me one day a week to go off-campus, and only one day a week, to speak to the broader world, to do consulting work, to give lectures, to write articles. Here we are today at Park Avenue and I've been spending some time with your audience here.

John Curry: You did a fantastic job. I want to share this. You were talking this afternoon. I was thinking you're teaching these folks. I've been doing this for 45 years. I'm 66. 45 years, I'm thinking, "Oh my god. He's teaching people that are 18, 19, 20 years old, and I've been doing this twice their age."

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah, and to be honest, I'm kind of jealous of you because my audience of 20 year olds and 25 year olds don't have the same amount of respect and the same amount of admiration for retirement planning as someone like yourself or I would have because it just seems so distant for them. When you talk to someone who's in their 40s or 50s or 60s and you talk about retirement and retirement planning and how much you need and how much you should spend, it's real for them. This is something meaningful. They see it in the horizon. But when you talk to a 20 year old about retirement planning, they don't know what they want to do with their life. They don't know what job they're going to have. So it's a much harder struggle to get them to take it seriously, which is why, to be honest, I enjoy speaking to older audiences because this is something that's a lot more realistic for them.

John Curry: No doubt. No doubt. What I love about what you do, Moshe, is you're not selling financial products. See, what I love about what you do and other people in the world of academia, you have no ax to grind. So if someone listening to this, "Okay, I know John. He's a good guy." Might even be a client of mine, but they still might have that doubt. Are the products he's recommending really what I need? That's human nature. We're all going to do that. But what I love about your books and your presentations, you do it in a manner that you're not promoting any particular product. It could be life insurance. It could be annuities. It could be mutual funds, whatever. And one of your best books ever, in my opinion, is Are You A Stock Or A Bond?

Moshe Milevsky: Well, thank you.

John Curry: I think that's the best book you've written so far.

Moshe Milevsky: I appreciate that. I'm proud of that work. So well, first to your first point, because of the fact that my day job, my employer is a university, I am not beholden to the financial industry. I really speak my mind, and sometimes the financial or the insurance industry agrees with what I have to say and sometimes they disagree with what I have to say, and that's life nowadays.

John Curry: Well, that is true. I can you tell you for a fact I've witnessed people saying, "I don't like what he has to say." I say, "Yeah, but is it true?" "Well, yes." "Okay. It's true."

Moshe Milevsky: For many years, the insurance industry did not like what I had to say about guaranteed death benefits on annuities. I felt that in certain circumstances, they didn't make a lot of sense, and the insurance industry disagreed with me. Now I think annuities are a great ideas, longevity insurance is a great idea, and the insurance industry likes the message. So I really don't wake up in the morning and say, "Okay. What can I say today that will antagonize a particular industry or could we favor with them?" I just go where the research seems to be pointing, and at this particular case, it's that longevity insurance is important.

So to get back to the issue at hand, I find that when you're talking to someone from an academic or scholarly background, they tend to have a perspective that's much more detached, arm's length, and they are going to tell the good with the bad. And I like that. To me that's refreshing. A lot of people criticize the idea that economists can't come to an opinion. On the one hand, and on the other hand. The joke is that when FDR was asked who he wanted to nominate to run the Federal Reserve, FDR's response was, "I want a one handed economist. I want an economist with one hand." When they asked him, "Why, President?" He said, "Well, because I don't want to hear this on the one hand and on the other hand."

John Curry: I remember reading that quote. I love that. But it's funny that you say that because in the world I live in, people are trained to present their best possible position. I come from a military background of being in the Air Force in the '70s. We were taught you do everything you can. You show the good and the bad of everything. So when someone asks me a question, I give them the good and the bad. I tell them the good, the bad, and the ugly because I think you as a consumer deserve to know all the facts so you can make an educated decision. What's your response to that?

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah. I agree with that. In fact, you say the good, the bad, and the ugly, and I would reverse that and say the ugly, the bad, and then the good.

John Curry: Oh, tell me why.

Moshe Milevsky: I think you really have to be very, very realistic about what can go wrong with any strategy that you're recommending.

John Curry: You did that today in your presentation.

Moshe Milevsky: I think it's very important to start with the negative. Look, here is what can go wrong. Here are the things that may not work out, and once people understand that, then say, "But, here's the good side. Here's the upside. Here are the things that might work out in your benefit." One of the things that concern me is the rosy pictures that are painted about financial products. The headline number. You may earn up to 12% on this thing.

John Curry: But, in fact, the odds are you may lose 20%.

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah, you may lose... Exactly. The odds of earning 12% are very, very slim, and more likely you're going to lose 20%. So I really like to set the ground work by saying all the things that could go wrong, and once I've calibrated that, then you talk about all the upside.

John Curry: You know it's funny you say that because when I'm sitting here listening to that, I always point out the negatives first. So I guess I am doing the ugly first, aren't I?

Moshe Milevsky: I think so. I think that by telling people the negative first, you're preparing them for the fact that this isn't a sales pitch. This is an awareness story. These are all the things that can happen, and once you've covered all the bases about the negatives, then you can talk about, "Well, we're hoping for better."

John Curry: You know that's interesting because I retired on paper January of this year. I'm 66. I was 66 December 9. So I retired, took my pension, an unqualified pension and social security. But I love what I do. I'm like I want to be like George Burns. I hope I am 100 years old, then I die, and they have to cancel the show because I couldn't make it because I died. I love what I do so much. But I do it on my terms.

Today, you were talking about, speaking of age, biological versus chronological. Would you talk about that some?

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah, I would. So in a nutshell, there's a growing awareness amongst people in the industry that we all have two ages, which is a weird thing to say. I mean, my age is my age.

John Curry: But it's true.

Moshe Milevsky: But the truth is-

John Curry: By the way, you don't know this. Let me jump in.

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah.

John Curry: I had open heart surgery, triple bypass in 2008. So I learned something about myself. I started changing things. I went from 284 pounds down to 220.

Moshe Milevsky: Oh wow. Okay.

John Curry: So I'm fairly fit now. Trim, doing exercise again. So I understand this concept of biological versus chronological age more than most people in that room.

Moshe Milevsky: You've lived it.

John Curry: I've lived it. I am living it now. So please, continue.

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah. So people's chronological age is the number of times that they've circled the sun. It's what's written on their birth certificate. It's what's on their driver’s license. Their biological age, which is a much more important number, is how old their body really is. The cellular age of your body, and if you're 55 years old chronologically, your cellular, your biological age could be as young as 40 or it could be as old as 70. Now this isn't some great revelation. It's no different than telling someone, "You look great for your age," or, "You don't look very good." But scientists have now reached a point where they can actually measure you're biological or cellular age and compare it to your chronological age. And a large part of the population's biological age is actually lower than the chronological age, which is great news. They're younger than their age. There's an equal fraction that's higher than their chronological age. By symmetry, if half our under, half have to be above that.

And my point or at least the point I was trying to make in the presentation is that retirement planning, your retirement plan should depend on your biological age more so than your chronological age. Your withdraw rates, the amount of money that you're allocating to your pension, how you're allocating your assets, your investments. Your insurance policy should be based more on your biological age than your chronological age. And in the future, there's going to be a growing awareness on the part of people on what their true biological age is, and I think the industry's going to have to adapt to the fact that we're going to start thinking in terms of two ages as opposed to one age.

John Curry: Don't you think it's already happen though in the sense that consumers... I'm thinking of a couple that I love dearly. I won't use names, but he's 80, soon to be 81. She's 78. Both had some hip replacement surgeries. They retired in their 50s. In their 50s. So here they are in their soon to be... She'll be in her 80s, and they're realizing they have to slow down some. They traveled and did so many things. But if you looked at this couple, there's no way you'd think that they were 80 and 78 respectfully. A guy today said to me, he said, "John, I've known you for 30 years, you look 20 years younger because of what you're doing." That was before you took the stage. So I think the people of today, we hear that 70 is the new 60, et cetera. I think we as consumers already feel that way. But I think that the financial services industry has not caught up yet.

Moshe Milevsky: No, no. And the attorneys and the compliance officers and the entire infrastructure of financial services hasn't picked up on that yet. I also think it's important to understand that our entire legal system, pension system, regulatory system is geared to chronological age when in fact it should be geared to biological age. So I envision a day, as controversial as this might be, where your retirement age for social security should be based on your biological age. If you're in perfectly good healthy and your parents lived to 100 and there isn't anything wrong with you, I don't think you should be entitled to walk into the social security office at the age of 62 and say, "I want my social security benefits." You're 50 biologically. Vice versa, if you are someone who is 50 chronologically but you're in poor health, you aren't doing very well, and your biological age is in the mid-60s, maybe you should be entitled to start your pension. I think that there's got to be a growing awareness of biological age, not just when it comes to your own investment portfolio but in terms of retirement policy as well. Let's be fair.

John Curry: You live in Canada.

Moshe Milevsky: I do.

John Curry: I love Toronto. Every time I'm in Toronto, I walk past your school there, university. Here's what I look at, I have always said all of my working career that social security never should've been allowed to be turned on at 62. Franklin Roosevelt said that social security was not perfect, but it was designed to make sure that the people didn't retire poor. You got to put it in context. This is Great Depression. Our system has changed to where people think, "I'm going to take it as soon as possible." I took my at 66. Didn't wait until 70 because time, value of money. I want the money now. But I don't think that social security should ever had been allowed at 62. 65, 66, maybe even 70, I don't know. But I'm not a policymaker. Thank god. I'm just a guy on the street helping my clients, and have had the pleasure of doing it for 45 years.

Moshe Milevsky: And I don't want to get too close to the third rail of politics. Should we modify it?

John Curry: I agree.

Moshe Milevsky: Is it sustainable? Should we change the current rule? I don't want to get too far into that. All I'm trying to say is your age isn't the thing on your driver’s license. That's the only point I'm trying to make. Your age is not the number of times you circle the sun. Your age isn't the current year minus the year that you were born. Your age is something much more important and deeper and fundamental in your biology, and that's the number that you've used for retirement planning.

John Curry: We've only got a couple minutes left. Would you please share your story personally about your birthday, when you turned 50, and you did the test that you did. Would you share that?

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah. Sure. I'd be delighted to. So as I had mentioned in the presentation today, when I turned 50, my wife's birthday present, god bless her, to me was a mail order kit that measures my biological age or cellular age.

John Curry: You know why she did that?

Moshe Milevsky: Why did she do that?

John Curry: She wanted to make sure that you're going to be around for a while.

Moshe Milevsky: Probably. Probably. Yeah.

John Curry: Go ahead. I'm sorry. I couldn't resist.

Moshe Milevsky: No, no. You're absolutely right, John. The way this thing works is that they ask you to puncture yourself and put a little blood in a vial and you mail it away. Six weeks later, they send you an email. And this email, I turned 50, and this email that they sent to me said that my chronological age was 50, obviously. That's written on my birth certificate. But that my biological age was about eight years younger. It was closer to 42, which intrigued me very much, and is what got me interested in this whole topic of biological age. So I spoke to the chief scientist at this company, and he said to me that there is something that we all have in our bodies called telemirrors, which is a fancy name for the end of your chromosomes. And if those telemirrors are getting shorter and shorter and shorter quickly, that's not good. You're aging fast. And if those telemirrors are relatively long, then you're aging slowly. And that's good. Based on the length of the telemirrors, they can determine how old your biology or your cellular age really is. And at the time, it struck me as, "Oh, that's interesting. That's a novelty."

But as time went on, I realized that this has enormous implications to financial planning, most importantly if you have a biological age that's much younger than your chronological age. You're probably a very good candidate for buying something called an annuity or an indexed annuity or single premium annuity because when you buy one of these annuities, you're betting that you're going to live a long time. If you're biological age happens to be five, 10, 15 years younger than your chronological age, that's probably a good bed to make. You're actually going to live longer than the averages. So that's sort of what got me interested in this whole thing.

John Curry: And if you live longer, then those type products are more important because it gives you a guarantee lifetime income. The purpose of this is not to promote a product, but let me ask you this, from the standpoint of what you've learned about the two ages, I took four pages of notes, by the way. What would you say is a takeaway for the person listening to this who is not a professor like you? I have a master's degree in financial services myself. They're not a financial advisor. What's the takeaway for the average American listening to this?

Moshe Milevsky: So here's the way I like to think about it, as I get older, I want to make sure that my financial portfolio doesn't require decisions from me. I want to minimize the decisions that I have to make as I get older. I want my money to be on autopilot.

John Curry: Me too, buddy.

Moshe Milevsky: I do not enjoy making financial decisions as I get older. So let me be very clear. I am currently in my 50s. I love asset allocation. Every month at the end of the month, I look at my portfolio and I wonder, "Should I have more investments in value or growth? Should I have more small cap or large cap? Should I have more international? Where's the U.S. dollar going? Maybe merging market." I enjoy it. I love it at the age of 55.

At the age of 65, will I still be doing asset allocation? I hope so. I think so. I'll still be working. I still will be managing my portfolio. I love making financial decisions. How about when I'm 75? When I'm 75, am I going to really want to be sitting there and figuring out whether I should be taking 3% or 4% or dividends or bonds at 75? I'm going to want to play with my grandkids. What about at 85? If I make it to 85, do I want to sit at the end of the month with a spreadsheet and try to figure out what I'm selling from or what account to us? 85, I don't think so. What about 95? If I get to 95, if god blesses me and I'm 95 years old, do you think I really want to sit at the end of every month and figure out what the right asset... I'll be glad with a decent bowel movement at 95.

John Curry: I'm 66. I would tell you I like the fact that every month, like a mushroom, it just pops up. Money just appears.

Moshe Milevsky: Automatic.

John Curry: Automatic.

Moshe Milevsky: I think that's the most important lesson in financial planning to put your investment portfolio on autopilot.

John Curry: Absolutely. Would you do this, we're over time, would you please take just a moment and share your concept in your book that I loved the best of all your stuff Are You A Stock Or A Bond. Would you please explain that concept?

Moshe Milevsky: Well, John, you're really taking me back now.

John Curry: That's a great book, though. I think it's your best book. I mean, I know you're writing new stuff and your world. If what your latest piece of work, but to me, that's the best one.

Moshe Milevsky: Thank you. That's very kind of you. So it's almost like we have to start a new podcast because a new show-

John Curry: Just keep it brief.

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah.

John Curry: We'll do another podcast later.

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah. So here's the story. So one of the things that I've realized is that people when their young, I'm not talking about retiree. You're 30 years old, and you're starting your career. You have a job. You're moving up the career chain, and what I've noticed is that people's biggest investment when they're in their 30s isn't their house, isn't their portfolio, isn't their 401K. Their biggest investment is their job.

John Curry: Absolutely. Their career.

Moshe Milevsky: Their career.

John Curry: Their career.

Moshe Milevsky: And some people have invested 10 or 15 years to become doctors and lawyers and surgeons and accountants. Their biggest investment is their career and their job. And the point that I try to make in that book is that your career has risk characteristics similar to a portfolio. And what I mean by that is some people by their nature are bonds. For example, if you're a teacher or a fireman or a police officer or a federal or state employee, it may sound like you have a pretty risky job. You're running into fires to put them out. But you got job security, unions. Very difficult to fire people in those positions. Your career is essentially a bond. Other people have careers that are more stock like. You're working in a financial services industry. You're an investment banker. You're a financial advisor. You sell insurance. Whatever it is, your career is more stock like.

The point that I try to make in that book is that your financial portfolio should balance out what your human capital or your job is like. So I'll give you an example. It sounds abstract. If what you do for a living is you sell real estate, you're a real estate agent, please make sure that your financial portfolio, your 401K, your IRA has no real estate in it. No REITs, not real estate investment. Why? Because you're human capital is a REITs. Human capital is real estate. Your human capital is a real estate portfolio. If you work in the financial industry, make sure that your financial capital does not have any financial stocks in it. If you work for Coca Cola, make sure your 401K doesn't have any discretionary consumer goods. If you work for oil and gas industry in the Gulf of Mexico, make sure your 401K doesn't have any of that.

What I'm trying to say is that your financial capital and your human capital have to zig and zag at different times. And the message there is make sure that you diversify outside of what you do for a living.

John Curry: But here's the point you're making that's unusual. When I read that book, I said, "Oh, I love this guy." That was my first introduction to you years ago. I forget what year you published... Do you recall what year?

Moshe Milevsky: 10 years ago.

John Curry: 10 years ago. It was like an ah-ha moment because in my world, I tell people if you have a risky job, don't let your money be risky. Don't let your money be risky because your money has got to take care of your for the rest of your life, whatever that is. Whatever that is.

Moshe Milevsky: It's the hardest message I've had to sell. Usually when I get up and I talk, I don't get a lot of resistance. That message Are You A Stock Or A Bond was the most difficult one because it's very difficult to argue with success.

John Curry: Wait a minute. Whoa. Whoa. I'm shocked. I don't understand that. Why was that hard?

Moshe Milevsky: It was hard because it only works after it's too late, and then it doesn't help them anymore. I'll give you an example.

John Curry: So does that mean I'm weird because I got it before?

Moshe Milevsky: No, no. Not at all.

John Curry: I don't understand.

Moshe Milevsky: I'll give you an example. We had a very large company in Canada, the largest company in Canada on the Toronto stock exchange, was called NorTel, Northern Telecom. At one point, Northern Telecom was 30% of the Toronto stock exchange.

John Curry: Wow.

Moshe Milevsky: People that worked for Northern Telecom, it was a big successful company.

John Curry: They had a bunch of money there.

Moshe Milevsky: They had a bunch of money there because the stock was going up.

John Curry: Big time mistake.

Moshe Milevsky: They had money invested there. They lived in neighborhoods where all their neighbors worked for Northern Telecom. And for your U.S. audience, I'll tell you the end of the story. Northern Telecom, NorTel went bankrupt in 1999, 2000. Bankrupt. The stock went to zero. So think about what happened. You worked for NorTel, your job is gone. Your stock portfolio, your executive compensation plan, gone. The real estate where you live, declined because everybody's selling.

John Curry: 401K, gone.

Moshe Milevsky: Triple whammy, quadruple whammy. When you talk to them after the fact, they say, "Oh. Moshe, where were you 10 years ago? Why didn't you tell me this when the stock was high?" It's because you're not going to listen to me when everything's doing well.

John Curry: Well, all you had to say was read my damn book.

Moshe Milevsky: Yeah. I'll give you another example in the U.S. PG&E, Pacific Gas and Electric, a utility in California. The stock, they've declared bankruptcy. Stock price declined. Bond price declined. If you work for the company, your job is at risk. If you live in area where other employees work, for god sake, do not invest your money in the same industry where you work. There's a great money manager in the 1990s at Fidelity called Peter Lynch.

John Curry: Oh yes.

Moshe Milevsky: Most of your listeners... He used to say invest in what you know. Invest in what you know, and my reaction is I'm not sure that's the best advice because investing in what you know means you work there. You know the industry. You're involved in it. Maybe the advice is invest in things that you know very little about because you don't work there. For example, I work in the financial services industry. I work as a consultant. I'm a teacher. I give lectures. I like to invest in oil and gas. Why? Because my human capital has very, very little to do with oil and gas. I don't consult with the oil and gas industry. I don't work for the oil industry. I'm not in the petroleum industry. So it's a good investment for me because it's uncorrelated. It's not dependent on my human capital. I do not hold many insurance companies in mutual funds and asset managers. Why? Because I do consulting work for them. Why would I want to put the two of them together?

John Curry: Would you please explain that one word you just said? Uncorrelated asset, most people have never heard that. Would you please explain that?

Moshe Milevsky: Uncorrelated is just another way of saying when something zigs, the other thing zags.

John Curry: I love that.

Moshe Milevsky: Correlated is when they both go up and down together. Uncorrelated is one goes up, the other one might go down, might go up.

John Curry: I'm going to tell you what I say, and if you don't agree, just tell me because we believe in being fair and truthful here. I tell people it means that they're non-related. Is that a fair word?

Moshe Milevsky: That's a good way of saying it, or another way of saying it is just coin tosses. Just because you got head's once doesn't mean you're going to get head's a second time in a row. And I think it's like a roulette wheel. You spend the roulette wheel, the roulette wheel has no memory. Those are uncorrelated events. I like to invest in uncorrelated things, not things that are correlated, which is why I tell people we have in Toronto a large industry in the real estate business. A lot of real estate agents, a lot of real estate. I say do not invest your retirement money in real estate. But very few of them listen. They say, "No, no, no. It's worked out for me. I work in the... I know the industry." When you talk to a biotechnology analyst, "I know the industry. I'm going to invest in biotech." You talk to small guy... I just don't think it's prudent. I don't think it's prudent, and unfortunately the only way I'll be proven right is when things go wrong. And I hate to be proven right only when your situations going wrong. I like to be proven right in good scenarios.

John Curry: Let's be honest. In 2000, 2001, 2002, then we jump in 2008, people lost a lot of money.

Moshe Milevsky: Oh yeah.

John Curry: The people who stayed the course came back. But people made some bad decisions. Let's be honest. Every person listening to this podcast, you have a choice to make. Your decisions that you make today, you have to live with through the rest of your life.

Moshe Milevsky: Yup.

John Curry: And what you're saying is such great advice. We need to wind up here. I would simply say, folks, I would encourage you to search the name... I'm going to spell it for you. Moshe, M-O-S-H-E, Milevsky, M-I-L-E-V-S-K-Y. I rarely do this, as you know, but you need to read everything this man's written. It's unbelievable, good stuff. It's mostly something where you think, "Oh my god. That's over my head." Stick with it. Stick with it.

Moshe, thank you so much for taking time today.

Moshe Milevsky: My pleasure, John.

John Curry: Would you please join us again for another podcast?

Moshe Milevsky: I absolutely will. Next time I'm in Tallahassee, I'll definitely look you up.

John Curry: Oh my god. Thank you so much. Folks, I hope you've enjoyed this. We've gone over time. But we're doing great. Thank you so much and Moshe for joining us.

Moshe Milevsky: Thank you.

Speaker 3: If you would like to know more about John Curry services, you can request a complimentary information package by visiting JohnHCurry.com/podcast. Again, that is JohnHCurry.com/podcast. Or you can call his office at 850-562-3000. Again that is 850-562-3000. John H. Curry, Chartered life Underwriter, Charter Financial Consultant, accredited estate planner, masters in science and financial services, certified in long term care. Registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities LLC. Securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue Securities, a registered broker deal and investment advisor. Financial representative of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America and New York, New York.

Park Avenue Securities is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Guardian. No Florida financial corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue Securities. Park Avenue Securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC. This material is intended for general public use. By providing this material we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any special individual or situation, or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity. Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and may lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results.

Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents, or employees do not provide legal, tax, or accounting advice. Please consult with your attorney, accountant, and or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances. Not affiliated with the Florida retirement system. The Living Balance Sheet and the Living Balance Sheet logo are registered service marks of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York. Copyright 2005-2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with, or endorsed by Park Avenue Securities or Guardian, and opinions stated are their own.

2019-82980 Exp 7/21

Get Out and Do It

Robert and Sonia Koudelka have a philosophy that guided them in their careers, second careers (you read that right), and what they do in retirement: 

“Get off your butt and do it.”

Whether it’s playing golf five times a week, cruising through the Caribbean, making memories with the grandkids, or taking up a new hobby later in life, Robert and Sonia are enjoying their Golden Years to the fullest.

But it’s no surprise as that’s what they’ve done their entire lives. We talk about what got them to this point, as well as…

• The three things you need when you retire – and money is just part of it

• Why it’s never too late to pursue your passion in life

• The danger of saying “I’ll wait until I retire”

• A mentor you need to help you with financial matters

• And more

Listen now…

Episode Transcript:

John Curry: Hey, folks. John Curry here for another episode of John Curry's Secure Retirement podcast. I'm sitting here with two friends that I've known for 28 years. Sonia and Bob Koudelka, and I am looking forward to this because these folks retired at a young age, have done some travel that'll blow your mind. Hope we get into that today. But first, Sonia, Bob, welcome. 

Robert Koudelka: Thank you.

Sonia Koudelka: Thank you.

Robert Koudelka: Our pleasure.

John Curry:  I've been looking forward to this. Sonia, let's talk with you, ladies first. Would you tell us a bit about your background, how you and Bob met because of the career he had, your involvement. Just tell us a bit about who you are.

Sonia Koudelka: Well, first of all, I grew up in New Jersey. I went to Montclair State College in New Jersey. It's a teacher's college. I met Bob, who was at Stevens Institute of Technology, at a fraternity party. One thing led to another, and we became engaged my senior year of high school.

Robert Koudelka: College.

Sonia Koudelka: Of college. And from there we were married. I graduated in August and we were married. Well, I graduated in June. We were married in August, and we then moved about every two to three years as he was working his way up the corporate ladder with Union Carbide.

John Curry:  Very good.

Sonia Koudelka: Let Bob continue on.

John Curry: I want to come back to that in a moment to talk about ... Because you started your career then at Union Carbide. Tell us a little about your background, Bob. Where did you grow up?

Robert Koudelka: I was born in New York City, spent the most of my childhood years in Queens, and went to Stevens Institute of Technology, as my wife says, and graduated with an engineering degree, and got a job with Union Carbide. It was in a development lab at Union Carbide. I was taking interviews for mostly marketing and sales positions, and someone said, "But if you start in marketing and sales, you'll be available to move back into something else that you might be good at and enjoy." So I started thinking about that and I said, "Okay, I'll go with Union Carbide and I'll be a development engineer." So I was working in areas of steel making, ore extraction, liquid nitrogen and freezing of foods. I have two patents, a very exciting time. Stayed there for about five years and moved to Hibbing, Minnesota where we had a process to a mine iron ore.

From Hibbing, Minnesota, we went to Birmingham, Alabama. Then we went from Birmingham, Alabama to Chicago, from Chicago to Hibbing, from Hibbing to Belgium, from Belgium to Connecticut, from Connecticut to Houston, from Houston to Connecticut. I'm probably skipping one or two places.

Sonia Koudelka: New Jersey.

Robert Koudelka: Huh?

Sonia Koudelka: And then back to New Jersey.

Robert Koudelka:  Back to New Jersey where it all started. It's a weird way to go, isn't it? And basically decided that I wanted to do something else other than climb the corporate ladder through marketing and general management jobs and that kind of thing. And then decided that I wanted to teach college history. We had a condo in Destin, Florida and I wanted to find a university that was a convenient accessibility to Destin, Florida because we liked Destin. And so we chose Florida State and moved to Tallahassee in 1991 where we met this guy over here. And I went in and I had to get a master of arts degree in history because all I had was a mechanical engineering degree and a master's in physical metallurgy from Stevens. So, I did that, took all my classes to get the doctorate. Florida State wanted me to teach there, so I did for about almost five years, and then decided that we should do a little more traveling. We wanted to see the world.

Sonia Koudelka: Well, now, wait a minute. While he was in school.

John Curry:  Right. I was going to say, let's back up because I want to hear more before you get to the FSU story. Go ahead, Sonia.

Sonia Koudelka: Well, while he was in school, I thought, "Hmm. Wouldn't it be nice if I decided to go back to school." I had been teaching after we got married, and of course, had to leave teaching because we were traveling, as you heard, every two years.

John Curry: What were you teaching?

Sonia Koudelka: Business education courses. So I decided to go back to school because I've always been interested in working with the poor. And so I decided to get a master's degree in social work. So we had a good time. While he was at Florida State and I was at Florida State, we would meet in the quad and have lunch together, and he would carry my books to my next class.

John Curry: That's amazing. And you're in your 50s here, right?

Sonia Koudelka: Yes, that's right.

John Curry: This is happening.

Robert Koudelka:  We were in our 50s.

John Curry:  So think about what you're hearing, folks. You got people who had a career, and then you retire. So instead of just retiring and doing nothing, you retired and went back to school, both of you.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yes, we did.

John Curry:  Interesting.

Sonia Koudelka:  And we had such a good time with the young people.

John Curry:  I bet you did.

Sonia Koudelka: They were so accepting of us. We attended a lot of parties then.

John Curry: So this is like …

Robert Koudelka: 27 again.

John Curry:  ... going back in time.

Sonia Koudelka: Yes, it was.

John Curry:  That had to be fascinating.

Sonia Koudelka: Yeah, we had a good time. We really did.

Robert Koudelka: It was very interesting competing against the 26 to 28 year olds who were making their living and wanting to make a living in teaching, and teaching history at the college level. I just was there to learn how to do it because it's always been a passion of mine. Since I was a teenager, I've read history books and not having any problems at all with wanting to ... I wanted to actually be a history professor when I graduated from high school, but circumstances intervened and I got an engineering degree. So I had a chance to do what I wanted to do back then.

John Curry: Let's back up, and we'll come back in a moment. Sonia, talk to us a little bit about ... How difficult was it raising a family, moving as much as you had to because of Bob's career? Talk about that for a minute. Or was it difficult?

Sonia Koudelka: At times, it was. I think the most difficult time was to leave New Jersey and moved to Minnesota, and leave my family behind. I think that was probably the hardest. Then after that, it just got easy.

John Curry:  Did you have Bob and Steve at that point?

Sonia Koudelka:  We only had one child. We had our oldest son at that time. It was interesting. It was fun. You had to make it fun. It got to a point where houses were just houses.

John Curry: So, it wasn't a home. You're just there temporarily.

Sonia Koudelka: No, it was a house, and it was a temporary place. We tried to make it a home per se. If things weren't done in the house in the first six months, they were never going to get done because we were going to be leaving. And then when we moved from Minnesota to Birmingham, Alabama, I thought I'd died and went to heaven because of the weather. The weather was absolutely glorious there. The azaleas were in bloom, where in Minnesota, it was still snowing, that kind of thing. I think I looked at it as a fun time, an exciting time, and we grew as a family. There was no question about that. Being away from our extended family, we had to learn to depend on one another. I think that was really important. It made us very close.

Robert Koudelka: And our second son was born in Birmingham.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yes, and our second son was born in Birmingham.

John Curry: Very good. Very good. All right. Bob, back to what you were saying, let's talk about what led up to you retiring at such a young age. I think you told me 52, right?

Robert Koudelka:  Yeah.

John Curry: Why did you retire at such a young age? What was the motivation?

Robert Koudelka: Corporate politics, frankly. We had two guys who were senior vice presidents. I worked for one of them and the other guy got the president's job, and I realized, at the time, that I was not going to be looked upon with promotional favor. And I said, "I've had enough of this." I could do what I wanted to do, and I was a youngster. And so what I did was enroll at Florida State. Kind of interesting, at Florida State, they quiz me when I applied. They said, "You've never taken a history course or college." I said, "That's correct." "And you had no experience in your humanities classes with history?" And I said, "Very small." So they said, "Well, we're going to have to accept you on a provisional basis." And I said, "What does that mean?" "Well, you're going to have to get a B in all your courses when you take ... "

I said, "That's okay. I think I can handle that." But then I took the GREs and got significant grades in the GREs. I got a nice call from the dean's secretary saying, "You're no longer provisional entry. Your grades were high enough on those two tests to say you're welcome to our program." So I got a master's of arts in history, and then studied for the PhD, and started teaching at Florida State, and loved the experience until I got to the point where they gave me 129 students in a very large classroom all by myself my second year. And I said, "Well, this is ... " Well, you had to work like crazy. You had to get certain things done. And then the next year, they gave me 129 again, and I said, "Why do I get the big coliseum here? And I have 129 ... " The secretary of the dean said, "If you had 130, we'd have to give you a teaching assistant." I said, "Okay, you can cross that out if you want."

John Curry:  That's funny.

Robert Koudelka:  So I taught there for, as I said, almost five years, and then decided to really retire. Maybe you want to comment about that? Oh, you just did. You did say that we went to school together, didn't you?

Sonia Koudelka: Well, after I got my MSW, I really wanted to go into private practice, but I didn't know what he was going to do, and you needed to spend two years under a tutelage of someone. I didn't know how long we were going to be in Tallahassee because I didn't know how long he was going to teach. I never knew what he was going to do. After a year and said, "I've had enough of this."

John Curry:  You were so used to being a vagabond, huh?

Sonia Koudelka: There you go. So I wound up working for the guardian ad litem program, and really enjoyed that.

Robert Koudelka: For about nine years.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yeah, almost nine years.

John Curry:  I remember you doing that.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yeah. And wound up being volunteer of the year one year. So that was quite an honor, and found it to be very, very rewarding. We came down here to The Villages on a lark. We just had heard about this place, and decided that we would just get away for a few days from Tallahassee. They had a special program here where you could stay in one of the nice homes, and they would give you money, per se, fun money, and you could rent a golf cart and go to the movies. You could play golf. You could do whatever you wanted to do, go out to eat. So we rented a golf cart and we were riding around the facility, and this man over here says, "This is really nice here. It's very well maintained." And he said, "If we don't do this now, we'll probably do it in a couple of years." I said, "What? What?"

John Curry:  I remember that conversation. When he came back and we had our review, we were talking about that. I was shocked.

Sonia Koudelka:  I went, "You got to be kidding me." I said, "Well, why would we wait? If this is what you really want to do, well then, let's do it." Well, we started looking at houses and wound up buying a house.

Robert Koudelka:   That same week.

John Curry:  That was 14 years ago. Right?

Sonia Koudelka:  14 years ago.

Robert Koudelka:  That's correct.

John Curry:  That's cool. Let's hit the pause button here for a second, and analyze what we've heard so far. You got this couple. They meet they get married very young. Traditional family from the standpoint, the husband goes off and has his career. You weren't working then.

Sonia Koudelka:  No.

John Curry:   You were just building a family.

Sonia Koudelka: Right.

John Curry: So then you end up retiring. You move to Tallahassee. You both go to college. So you're like high school or college sweethearts walking around on campus. This is so cool. And then you decide you want to teach. So you teach and do something that you'd always wanted to do, but got on the back burner. So you retire.

Robert Koudelka: That's correct.

John Curry:  And you say, "I'm going to go back and you fire up this passion again, and go to work at learning the history and teaching."

Robert Koudelka: And I did it.

John Curry:  Then you decide to retire. What'd you call it? Really retire, I think you said a moment ago, fully  retire. So talk to us a little bit about your passion for travel. Then I want to come back to your art in a minute. But Sonia, over the years, every time we get together for dinners or something, you're always talking about the traveling you do. So let's talk about that some. What are some of those memorable trips you remember being on? Because it seems like you were going on a cruise almost every month to me.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yeah. Well, it is kind of interesting because I thought I'd never want to cruise. Being on a ship with all those people out in the water, oh my gosh.

Well, when Bob retired, he said, "What do you want to do? You want to do something different?" And he said, "How about if we take a cruise to Bermuda?" Now, we went there on our honeymoon and I thought, "I could buy that. Leaving New York Harbor, going to Bermuda, yeah, okay." Well, we did and we really enjoyed it. We were bitten by the cruise bug. There was no question about that. But in addition to that, we also wanted to go places where we would learn something about the culture of the area that we were visiting. Not only have we done a lot of cruising, but we also have done a lot of touring in China, in Turkey, in Egypt. Help me out here.

Robert Koudelka:  Australia, New Zealand.

Sonia Koudelka: Yeah, Australia, New Zealand, Tibet.

Robert Koudelka:  Well, when we went to China, she said, "If we're here in China, I want to go to Tibet." So what did I say? "Yes, dear."

Sonia Koudelka:  So we did that. And yes, we have really enjoyed the chance to go all over the world.

Robert Koudelka:  Well, it's interesting, though. We were stationed in Belgium for almost three years, doing things with the Benelux. The company gave a 30% addition to your basic salary because you were in a different situation with different exposures, and maybe needed some additional money. So Sonia and I sat down and we said, "We could save this money and buy better housing when we get back home, or we can use it for travel." Well, this friendly little girl says, "Oh, I want to travel with the money." Well, we traveled all over Europe. We traveled ... You name it in Europe, we were probably there except Scandinavia. We had a really good time in Greece and places like that, and all over England and places like that. It was well done. But then when we got back home from being away for three years, we had already sold our house in Houston at the time. We came back, and we were going to buy a house in Connecticut. Well, then we said, "Ooh, we should have saved some of our money, because look at the price of these houses in Connecticut." So we splurged and did the best we could, and played at tight for a while, but somehow we survived.

John Curry:  Thinking back on that, do you think that was the right decision, to go spend the money and do the travel while you had the opportunity, while you're healthy? Any regrets of doing that?

Sonia Koudelka: Not at all.

Robert Koudelka: None at all.

John Curry:  I think it's the opposite that's the problem. I've been doing my business ... I'm in my 45th year now on the retirement planning side.

Robert Koudelka:  Time to retire.

John Curry:  Well, I don't want to retire. I could never retire. I'll be like George Burns, still working at a hundred, but on my terms. But I see people who keep saying, "Well, I won't do this. I'll wait till I retire. I'll wait until I retire." And then one of them get sick or there's an injury or something, and they can't enjoy it. But you did the opposite, at a young age, traveled, did a lot of stuff.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yeah. We were fortunate to be able to do that. But then again, we moved a lot too. Oh my gosh, we moved.

Robert Koudelka: I think we have 14 different homes in the process of going from 1960, when I started, to 1991, when I retired the first time.

John Curry:  Wow. 14.

Robert Koudelka:  And that was moving around. In some places, we'd spend 11 months. And other places, we'd stay three or four years, so it averaged out.

John Curry:  I can hear some people now, saying, "Wait a minute. If I had to move that much, I don't think I'd ever travel again."

Robert Koudelka:  Really, I don't equate moving with traveling.

Sonia Koudelka: That's different.

Robert Koudelka: Traveling was a pleasure. Moving was a general pain in the butt.

John Curry:  It was just a condition of your employment.

Robert Koudelka:  Yes. In a lot of ways, if you're climbing the corporate ladder, you got to move around. You couldn't stay in one place. That's what I was attempting to do, and I'm semi successful in it.

John Curry:  All right. Let's talk about The Villages. You decided to move to The Villages, and you got interested in golf, and you play golf on a regular basis. Tell us about that.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yes.

John Curry:  You didn't play golf until you moved here, right?

Sonia Koudelka:  Well, that's not true. Actually, in Birmingham.

Robert Koudelka: But it's more true than it's not.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yes. In Birmingham, I had some friends in our neighborhood that played a lot of golf. We belonged to a country club there and the club pro lived on our street. And so through some urging, they said, "Why don't you come out and take some lessons, and see if you like it?" Which I did, but I found out with young children, you can't go out and play 18 holes of golf and have lunch. It just wasn't working out. And so I did play for a while there, and actually learned to play there. Then when we got here in The Villages, and  all the golf courses that we have, then I picked it up again, and I love it. I actually love it. At one point, I was playing five days a week. 

John Curry:  Wow. I remember one time I got to play with you and your friends.

Sonia Koudelka: Yeah, you did.

John Curry:  It was a fun day. It was fun.

Sonia Koudelka: We had a good time.

John Curry:  Bob, were you playing much golf when you first moved here?

Robert Koudelka:  Well, being raised in New York City and playing stoop ball and American handball, and that kind of thing, you get a different slant on things. Golf wasn't at the head of the agenda. In fact, for me, it's never been really at the head of the agenda because when you start having kids ... I used to like to coach them. Baseball, soccer ... I played three sports in college, soccer, squash and baseball. So when the kids were playing anything close to those two things, I was happy to become the manager of the team and do that with them because I could spend more time with them. And so we enjoyed that.

One thing I'd like to add, though, is that our two sons had six grandkids, and each of these grandkids, at 10 years old, we invited them on a cruise with us. We love to cruise, and we assumed that they would love to cruise. We did have let them choose where they wanted to go. One chose Alaska. One chose the Eastern Caribbean. One chose the Western Caribbean. One wanted to go to Paris. We said, "Oh no, not yet." So she took a Disney cruise, but every time one of the six grandkids hit 10 years old, we had a week with them away from their parents, away from their siblings, and really had a chance to get to know them. They still talk about it. So traveling with your grandkids on a cruise is a very positive experience for us.

Sonia Koudelka: And we've been very fortunate that their parents would allow them to go with us.

Robert Koudelka: That's true.

Sonia Koudelka:  That was big.

Robert Koudelka: That was very pleasurable.

John Curry: That's building memories.

Robert Koudelka:  Oh, boy.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yes. It is.

John Curry:  Long after we're dead and gone, our grandchildren, our great grandchildren will remember the things that they did with us, and the feeling they have long, long ... More than they'll remember anything we leave, physically.

Sonia Koudelka: Exactly.

John Curry:  And it's more important to them. Heck, probably most of the stuff we leave behind, they don't want. But they want those memories and they'll always have that.

Robert Koudelka: Interesting. We were on a cruise with a fifth grandchild, and I collect things. I have history books. I have a coin collection, stamp collections, things. I collect things. I even collect sand from around the world. I have 200 samples of sand from around the world. So I asked this 10 year old boy, I said to him, "Grandpa's got a lot of collections. Is there any one of my collections that you want?" He thought a little bit and he said, "No, Grandpa. I don't want any of your collections." And he stopped, and I said, "Okay. Well, what am I going to do with all this stuff?" Five, 10 minutes later, he says, "Grandpa, there is something you have that I want." And I said, "What's that?" "Your money."

John Curry:  Your money.

Robert Koudelka: Those are beautiful memories.

John Curry:  That's funny. Your money. "You've been collecting money. I want that."

Robert Koudelka: Yeah, "I want that."

John Curry: That's funny.

Sonia Koudelka: Lord.

John Curry:  All right. Let's talk about something for just a second here. If you had the ability ... Well, you do because people listen to this, what advice would you offer the person who is in their 50s, maybe even their 60s, and they're trying to decide what to do, "Do I keep working longer? Do I retire? What do I do in retirement?" Just what would you say to someone, if you were sitting here face to face with them, that was posing that question.

Robert Koudelka:  There are three things you need when you retire, in my opinion. You've got to have your health. You need good health. You got to be financially okay. You don't have to be financially independent, independent, independent, but you just to be financially okay, and you have to have something to do. You got to have something you love to do. When I retired for the last time, I became somewhat of an artist. I had something to do. I had a group of people who were willing to help me, a group of people that I liked, a group of people we socialize with. Art became one of my passions in my now years.

John Curry:  And you're good at it too, so before we leave that. Also, you told me earlier over lunch ... Tell us about your display, what's happening at one of the rec centers.

Robert Koudelka: You really want that?

John Curry:  I do.

Robert Koudelka: I've been designated spotlight artist for our club, which has over 200 members. It's a colored pencil club, and I favor colored pencil as an art medium. They came to me and asked me, "Could I have 12 of your paintings? We want to put you up as the spotlight artist for the summer in one of the rec centers here in The Villages." So I said, "Of course." I gave them 12 of my paintings and now my walls are bare.

John Curry:  I see several of them right there.

Robert Koudelka:  Yeah, but they're barer than they were.

John Curry:  And I saw the one of my grandson on your-

Robert Koudelka:  Ah, that was a pleasure.

John Curry:  That you did ... I forget how many years ago now. He's 13 now.

Robert Koudelka:  Well, he's 13 now and he was probably six, five.

John Curry:  I'm thinking five or six, so long time ago.

Robert Koudelka: It's a cute picture, and I enjoyed doing it.

John Curry: Sonia, what about you? Bob hit something. I call it time freedom and money freedom. You got to have time freedom and money freedom, but you also have to be healthy to enjoy it. What would you add to that? What are your thoughts?

Sonia Koudelka:  Well, you have to find something that really sparks your interest. I love to read, so I belong to two book clubs here in The Villages. I do play golf, which takes up a lot of time. There's no question about that.

Robert Koudelka: How many times a week did you play golf?

Sonia Koudelka: Five times a week. Now mind you, two of those times, I played on the championship courses, which is 18 holes. And the other times, were only nine hole golf courses.

Robert Koudelka: Oh yeah, executive courses.

Sonia Koudelka: Executive courses. I substitute in bridge clubs here in The Villages. I am very active in my church. I'm on the parish council of my church. There are things that I think you can find to occupy your time, and I think it's really important that you do.

Robert Koudelka:  The thing that people talk to me about ... When I don't come to art for a while, and I'm trying to do something else, my mentor, a woman named Anne Klein here in The Villages says, "Bob, you haven't been doing much art lately." I said, "Yeah, because I've been doing this." She says, "Pick up the pencil. And I say, "Yes, ma'am." And that's what I really want to do, so that's what I do.

Sonia Koudelka: Well, he's got me involved in doing that now also.

Robert Koudelka:  What I'm trying to say to people who are in the process of trying to get something focused for them to do, get off your butt and do it.

John Curry:  Good advice. Let's talk a little bit about the financial side for a minute. You mentioned that. You have been very disciplined over the years I've known you. I've known you almost 30 years. You made a comment earlier about spending the money to do travel, but at the same time, you've been good stewards of your assets. You haven't wasted money. Talk a little bit about the importance and what advice you would offer someone to get on a path of where they have that money for think, you mentioned a minute ago.

Robert Koudelka: Well, one of the first things I would say is you need a good financial advisor. I found one, and I think he's right across the table from me.

John Curry:  Thank you, Bob.

Robert Koudelka:  When we started to do things ... I met him because I had a life insurance policy, and he was the  representative of the company. I bought the life insurance policy when we moved to Tallahassee. And then from that, that sprung  a very nice relationship and friendship. It's been a very knowledgeable experience for me to utilize John as my mentor in financial matters. His advice is usually good and what I do is-

John Curry:  Usually good, huh?

Robert Koudelka: Usually good. Anyhow, the whole concept of being financially ... You don't need a lot of money, but you need enough money to be able to do the things you'd like to do. Retiring at 52 was a gamble, but I haven't had a full time paying job other than teaching at a college, and that wasn't the very lucrative. Since that moment in time, I'm retired. So we were going to take what we had and utilize that in a very frugal manner and survive. And apparently, we did.

John Curry:  You've done a good job of that. I think the key is being frugal. You didn't go spend everything. You could've had much bigger houses than you had. You manage your money well, and the money you spent was, from an outside looking in, was family. You talked about having the place in Destin. You got the family together.

Robert Koudelka: Every year.

John Curry:  Sonia, I'd like you to talk about that for a moment. You're nodding your head there about that. How important has that been in your lives at this point, looking back, and having all these family vacations around Christmas every year?

Sonia Koudelka: Well, also it started before that. In the summertime, we always had the family coming during the summer because of the kids being in school. They could always come to Destin and they would spend a week with us. But then we started having Christmas, and we always spent Christmas in Destin. I don't know. It's just tradition. Everybody wants to do it, and they want to know when they should come. We just have a wonderful time.

Robert Koudelka: And the grandkids know nothing else. That's been their tradition.

Sonia Koudelka: Exactly.

Robert Koudelka: For the Christmas Eve and Christmas Day, they spend with the other half of their family. And on the 26th of December to New Year's and New Year's Eve, they're in Destin every year. Getting together both families from the two boys, three kids, each, very nice wives, very fortunate wives ... We're very fortunate to have daughters-in-law like that. It's became a …

Sonia Koudelka:  Tradition.

Robert Koudelka: ... tradition, and it's a tradition that I've loved.

John Curry:  It's fun watching you guys because I've had the pleasure of being there a few times with you, at least one day of those. It's just fascinating, all those activities going on. You're watching some ball games together. You've always got some game you guys are playing.

Robert Koudelka: Well, I put together pools for football, how much money is in the jar, what's in the box, those kinds of games. But the grandkids win money if they are the winner of the various games we play.

John Curry:  Now, we know the real reason.

Sonia Koudelka:  That's the reason, yeah.

John Curry: They get money.

Robert Koudelka:  It's not that much, but it's something that they remember.

John Curry:  That's funny. So what's next for you folks? You're not slowing down. You're still going. You're doing things. Still going to do travel?

Sonia Koudelka: We hope to.

Robert Koudelka: Yeah.

Sonia Koudelka: Why not?

Robert Koudelka:  In fact, we're talking about a couple of places that we want to go to. We have not been to Iceland. We'd like to go to Iceland, and we'd like to take a river boat on the Columbia River out in the Oregon territories. And Sonia wants to do a river boat somewhere in Europe. We haven't done that yet.

Sonia Koudelka:  We've never done that yet.

John Curry:  I thought you had.

Robert Koudelka:  No.

Sonia Koudelka: No, not a riverboat.

Robert Koudelka: We like to take transatlantic voyages back to the US so when we leave a Barcelona or a London, the boat is going with the time so that you can correct the clock for one hour on your five days going back and you don't feel it like a bang when you get here, and have to make the adjustment if from a plane.

John Curry:  I never thought of that. That's a great idea.

Robert Koudelka: Oh, it is. It works out.

John Curry:  So you don't get yourself a worn out.

Robert Koudelka: We've had a good life.

Sonia Koudelka: We've been very fortunate. We really have, and our health is pretty good.

Robert Koudelka: My doctor says I'm in better health than he is, and he's only 50.

Sonia Koudelka: We've had some bumps in the road, but we've managed, as everybody has.

Robert Koudelka: Well, you beat cancer, girl.

Sonia Koudelka: That's true, I have.

Robert Koudelka:  Breast cancer survivor right here and that's part of the people you meet with here too.

Sonia Koudelka: That's right.

Robert Koudelka: I'm surprised you didn't mention that because you like those of people.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yes. Oh, that's right. There is a wonderful support group here. There's so many things here in The Villages that you can become involved in it, and it's up to you. It's your decision, whatever you want to do.

Robert Koudelka:  Get off your butt.

John Curry:  That's great. I think that's good advice, just determine what you want to do, and then go do it, and quit making excuses. Do it or don't do it, but take the time. I call it stepping back, thinking about what you want, reflect on it, talk about it as a couple, and then have a game plan and go do it. Just go do it. I want, before we get off here, some more travel. Talk a little bit about your experience of going to China. Weren't you there like a month?

Sonia Koudelka:  Oh, no. We weren't there that long.

Robert Koudelka: About three weeks.

Sonia Koudelka:  Yeah, we were three weeks.

John Curry:  Three weeks.

Sonia Koudelka: It was incredible. We flew into Beijing and we were with a wonderful tour company. It was Overseas Adventure Travel and they were absolutely incredible. They were, what, 15 of us on that tour?

Robert Koudelka: Yep.

Sonia Koudelka: And from there, we took a train down to-

Robert Koudelka: From Beijing.

Sonia Koudelka: From Beijing to Xian. And then from Xian, we were down on the Yangtze, and took a boat through the Three Gorges Dam. And then from there, we went to Chengdu. From Chengdu, we flew to Tibet.

Robert Koudelka: Lhasa.

Sonia Koudelka:  To Lhasa. This was all during that three week period. So we saw a lot. We did a lot. We intermingled with the Chinese people.

Robert Koudelka: Stayed in their houses.

Sonia Koudelka: Yes, we did in a farmhouse. We stayed in a farmhouse with a Chinese family. It was terrific. It was really wonderful. The other fantastic trip that we took was the Turkey trip where we flew into Istanbul, and went from Istanbul to down to Ephesus, and went through that historical area, and then further down to the Turquoise Coast where we got on a gullet and spent four days on a gullet, sailing the boat.

John Curry:  What's a gullet?

Sonia Koudelka:  It's a boat.

Robert Koudelka: A yacht.

Sonia Koudelka: A yacht.

Robert Koudelka:  A big yacht.

Sonia Koudelka:  Now again, I think there were only 14 of us on that. And so we sailed along the coast, and at night, anchored. Our captain was Barbarossa, we called him. And our chef that caught the food off the boat-

John Curry:  Wow.

Robert Koudelka:  Seafood.

Sonia Koudelka: And cooked it. It was amazing. And then from there, we went up to a place called Cappadocia with these ... What were they made out of?

Robert Koudelka: Sandstone.

Sonia Koudelka: It's kind of sandstone houses and, we took a balloon ride over that topography, which was absolutely incredible. That was also almost a three week trip. Another outstanding trip was our trip to Egypt where we were…

Robert Koudelka: Another balloon ride across the Nile.

Sonia Koudelka: Another balloon ride over the Nile. Yes.

John Curry: So I'm just listening to you. You've got me motivated, wanting to go do some more travel.

Sonia Koudelka: Oh, it's really ... We've been very fortunate. We've gone to some very interesting places and done some very interesting things.

John Curry: Well, I know we got some plans here coming, so let's wrap up. Any closing thoughts you'd like to share before we wrap up here?

Robert Koudelka: Well, enjoy what you're going to do because if you don't enjoy it, it's not going to be worth it. We seem to hit things that ... We started a couple of things we didn't enjoy, so we stopped it and we did the other things. But the traveling, we enjoyed. I've enjoyed my original profession, my secondary profession, and I really liked doing art now. Just enjoy what you're going to do.

Sonia Koudelka: I agree. You have to enjoy what you're doing. There's no question about that. There are times that I don't feel like getting up at six o'clock in the morning to go out and play golf. But once I get motivated and I'm out there, and it's beautiful and it's quiet and serene, and you're with a group of people that you enjoy, there's nothing better than that. So, get out and do.

John Curry:  I love it. That's awesome. Thank you so much for taking time to do this. Folks, I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I am. By the way, I forgot to say this. Normally, these are done in my office. I'm actually sitting in their kitchen, sitting here with my recorder, sitting with a coffee cup, doing this.

Robert Koudelka: Can we have a martini now?

John Curry:  Yeah, I'm ready for the martini now. So, we're going to say goodbye now and go have a Martini.

Speaker 4:  If you would like to know more about John Curry Services, you can request a complimentary information package by visiting Johnhcurry.com/podcast. Again, that is Johnhcurry.com/podcast or you can call his office at (850) 562-3000. Again, that is (850) 562-3000. John H. Curry, chartered life underwriter, chartered financial consultant, accredited estate planner, master's in science and financial services, certified in long term care, registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities, LLC. Securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue Securities, a registered broker dealer and investment advisor, financial representative of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York. Park Avenue Securities is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Guardian. North Florida Financial Corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue Securities. Park Avenue securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC. This material's intended for general public use. By providing this material, we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any specific individual or situation or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity.

Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and may lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results. Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents, or employees do not provide legal tax or accounting advice. Please consult with your attorney, accountant and/or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances. Not affiliated with the Florida retirement system, but Living Balance Sheet and the Living Balance Sheet logo are registered service marks of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York, copyright 2005 to 2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with or endorsed by Park Avenue Securities or Guardian, and opinions stated are their own.

2019-82152 Exp 07/21

Who Will Care for Your Special Needs Child When You’re Gone?

If you have a special needs child or even a relative, this is a can’t-miss episode. Lou and Cal Ogburn share the story of their daughter and how she has been able to live a fulfilling and independent life.

It’s thanks to their love and determination to secure her the federal and state benefits she qualified for – not to mention her great attitude and friendly personality.

They’ve also made a plan to pay for her care when they’re gone, which will be especially important as she gets older.

Listen in to find out…

• The state and federal programs you might not know about

• Details on special needs trusts

• A free source of information on special needs benefits

• The type of financial planning you must do if you have a special needs child

• And more

Listen now…

Episode Transcript:

John Curry: Hey, folks. John Curry here for another episode of The Secure Retirement Podcast. Today, I'm sitting here with Lou and Cal Ogburn and April Schoen. I'm looking forward to today because there is a wealth of information sitting across the table from me regarding special needs planning. But, before we get into that, Lou and Cal, I would like for you to share with our listeners both a little bit of your background. During lunch, I was fascinated by the fact that Cal, you served in three branches of the military, Army, Air Force and in Coast Guard. Will you tell us a little bit about that Cal?

Cal Ogburn: Yes, back in 19 ... in the '50s, I was drafted into the Army. I did my two-year required hitch in the Army. Unfortunately, a lot of my Army duty was working at Air Force bases in air traffic control. So, when I got out of the Army, I then joined the Air Force Reserve, which I was very happy and thought I was going to make my 20 years doing that. I began to hear about the Coast Guard had started an aviation section, and one of those units was in Savannah, very close to my hometown at that time, Waycross. 

John Curry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Cal Ogburn: So, I went down there and talked to the recruiter, and he hired me and about five of my other Reserve people to join to Coast Guard as well. So, that's how I ended up in the Coast Guard and I'm very pleased that I did that. 

John Curry: I was in the Air Force, so I resent the fact that you left the Air Force to go to the Coast Guard. What's wrong with you?

Cal Ogburn: It was called, I think, commission. 

John Curry: I understand that. That's funny, that's funny. Now, while he was doing all of this military stuff, what were you doing, Lou?

Lou Ogburn: Finished college and went to work for what was then Integon, which is a life insurance company. Worked there for several years, or maybe a year or two, moved over to Wachovia, which is now Wells Fargo. And then we moved to Daytona Beach, Florida. So, after that, it was just any job I could find doing anything. Ended up in Waycross, Georgia, and was a social worker. I had a degree in business administration, they didn't ask what the degree was in. They said, “Do you have a degree?” I said, “I do.” And they hired me.

So, it was a great job in a little town where you kind of knew everybody, and you had to make your own fun, and you learned a lot about the people, the culture, and how to help them. But, while we were in Waycross, we also adopted two children and it turns out one of those had special needs. So, about the time that she was needing to be tested and to go into the school system, we moved to Tallahassee, which offered a lot of opportunities for her and I'm happy we made that move. 

So, that starts the career with our daughter Ruth. She started out at Gretchen Everhart School, which is a special needs school here, and finished when she was 22. She's now 53 and she worked in the interim for 24 years at one job, and has now left that job because of a health problem. But, is doing volunteer work at one of the nursing homes in Tallahassee, so she's very happy. She likes the gym, she goes to an aerobics pool, and she has a trainer who helps her several times a week. And, she loves dancing, so she's taking a dance class. 

She’s very happy, she lives on her own with supports at night. 

John Curry: I want to back up for a second, I just learned something new that I did not know, and I've known you for a long time. 25-30 years? I'm not sure how long it is.

Lou Ogburn: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Curry: I did not know that you worked at Integon. I worked at Integon for 17 months.

Lou Ogburn: Oh really?

John Curry: As an agent, I sure did.

Lou Ogburn: And the head office was then in Winston-Salem?

John Curry: That's correct. 

Lou Ogburn: And I worked for the Vice President. I could forge his name and I wrote all of his correspondence. He did not like to do that. 

John Curry: When did you work there? What years?

Lou Ogburn: I finished college in '61, so I went to work within two weeks. So, I probably worked there from '61 to '62, maybe. It was probably a year. 

John Curry: Mine was a little later, '76 to '77.

Lou Ogburn: Too bad.

John Curry: That's funny.

April Schoen: That's funny. 

John Curry: It is. April, if you have questions that pop in mind, jump in, too.

April Schoen: Sure.

John Curry: I want to ask you a quick question before we move on. Would you take a moment and just share with our listeners how you got so passionate about learning everything you could about special needs? Because over the years I've learned so much from you and I'm convinced you know more about this topic than most attorneys who consider themselves special needs attorneys. So, would you just address that, then I'm going to go back to April for a minute?

Lou Ogburn: Sure. When Ruth was about ... She didn't walk, that was the first little clue we had when she was a year old. She didn't walk until she was maybe 18 months, and she didn't talk. So, we had a doctor who lived next door, he was about our age, and I went over there one day and I said to him, “What do you think is wrong with Ruth?” It was sort of a flip-up question and he said, “I think she's retarded.”

Well, when I finished crying-

John Curry: I well remember that.

Lou Ogburn: ... I thought, "That ain't going to do you any good. You might as well try and learn everything you can.” So, at that point my mission became: how do we help her? And Waycross didn't offer too much, but as I said, we had her tested at both the University of Georgia twice. We were in Georgia, we had access to the medical school there, and the first diagnosis said she will never develop at all, so put her in an institution.

April Schoen: About what year is this?

Lou Ogburn: She was about ... I guess it was about 18 months when they told us that. She was born in '65, so this was in '67 sometime.

April Schoen: Yeah.

Lou Ogburn: And so that ... I just didn't accept it. That was just not the answer I wanted. And so, we took her back, and I can't remember ... it was probably about a two or three year period in time, and in addition at that point we'd adopted another child, who was exactly the opposite of Ruth. He was well on his way to being an adult when he was about 2 years old. He could walk at 7 months.

April Schoen: Oh wow.

Lou Ogburn: And he could talk, and he could do anything. He was very well coordinated, and here you had two children 18 months apart in age, and one was more advance than the other, but he was the younger one. So, it was sort of a dilemma. We took her back to University of Georgia and took him with us this time and they said, "Oh no, that first diagnosis was all wrong. There's nothing wrong with her, she's just a little bit slow." 

Well, I didn't think that diagnosis was right either. You kind of know when somethings wrong. So, the third evaluation was made here in Tallahassee by a neurologist who's no longer living, and his was the most correct. He said, "I'm suspecting there was brain damage at birth," he said, "probably forceps damage when she was delivered." We had no way to know that, of course. And he said, "And I think there is some paralysis in her throat that keeps her from speaking clearly." He said, "But, my best guess at this point ..." and she was older, "is that she will attain the chronological age of about 13." And he said, "I think she's doing okay."

So, he gave me hope. So, I put her in a regular kindergarten and they took her, but they always knew that one of the teachers had to have her hand when they went on field trips and things like that. And actually, she started in a regular school, but that ... In the first grade, but that didn't last long before they decided to staff her into Gretchen Everhart. So, we essentially got the best of the special needs school. It was new, it had everything. It had the best of the teachers, and they did the best they could with her. She doesn't read, she cannot write, and she cannot tell time. But, she can think. And she can accept several commands at one time, and she had common sense.

So, I don't know. No psychologist or no doctor is ever been able to explain why. It doesn't follow any pattern. She's not downs. When the Mayo clinic, maybe ten years ago, did an MRI on her they said that the brain was normal looking with the exception it was a little bit smaller than perhaps yours or mine, and two little places at the back were a little bit wider than yours and mine would show up on an MRI. But, they said there's just nothing that shows any abnormalities in the brain. So, we don't know the answers to what happened. I even got her reading teacher several ... maybe 15 years ago to work with her again just to make sure we hadn't missed anything, and she said no. She cannot ... do the reading. But, if you gave her a pictorial book that had emblems in it she's used to seeing on television, she could tell you what all of those are. And she can read trucks going down the highway if it's a Walmart truck or if it's a Best Buy truck, or if it's Walgreens. She knows those, but she can't read the words.

So, your guess is good, and I've had a psychologist, which she's been to many psychologists over the years, tell me that if they had to put a label on her they don't know what they'd put. That she doesn't fall into any pattern at all. She has tendencies of autism, but she's too friendly. She's very social. And that is the mark of an autistic child is that they have no social skills at all, and she has a lot of social skills.

John Curry: Yes she does. Every time you see her in public she's just ... people like her and she likes people.

Lou Ogburn: I've been going to the gym here for maybe 4 years. I know maybe 4 people who work there, I mean, I'll say hello, I don't know their names. Ruth's been going for a year, everyone knows her name and she knows their name. So, she just has a different personality, so.

John Curry: Right. 

Lou Ogburn: So, does that help answer your question?

April Schoen: Yes!

Lou Ogburn: That's how I got started and that's why I decided I had no choice. We had to have the best for her.

April Schoen: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lou Ogburn: And fortunately, there were a lot of people around me and a lot of good help in Tallahassee. And we were just here at the right time, where the services were available, and we were able to get in on the ground floor. 

John Curry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

April Schoen: Do you feel like your experience in social work helped with this ... or transferred?

Lou Ogburn: Well, I had seen all kinds of people, but maybe. I hadn't ever thought about that. Perhaps it did.

Cal Ogburn: Yes. 

April Schoen: And knowing that there are services available and you just have to know where-

Lou Ogburn: Maybe that did help, yes.

April Schoen: ... to go and find them.

Cal Ogburn: I agree with that. 

John Curry: You spoke up on that, Cal. So, from your perspective, talk about that for a second. From ... Let me make a comment, first of all. I have told you many times that you've been a role model for me in how to deal with tough situations in a family. After our son had the accident, had the head injury, and some brain damage, you became even more important to me from our conversations. Remember those other the past seven years? How ... How would you describe how things were in the Ogburn household as you were dealing with this? It had to be stressful at times.

Lou Ogburn: Well, it's always stressful when you've got somebody who can't cooperate with the rest of the family some of the time. And it's not her fault. Our son ... He made it, sometimes, more difficult because he always was active and could do everything and she could not. But, Cal and I have always been united. That's the good news, is that it never split us apart.

John Curry: Good.

Lou Ogburn: And we worked hard at keeping them ... trying to keep them both happy and occupied. 

Cal Ogburn: I'm doing it more formally. Lou and I, not once, but several times, many times, would say, "All right, are we together on this?" Before we would ever walk out of a room or out of our bedroom. We presented a united front for you to see, for the world to see. And I think that's what got us through it. 

John Curry: Great. 

April Schoen: Yeah. 

John Curry: That's for sharing that. 

Lou Ogburn: Now, when she finished Everhart ... And Everhart is a very protected society, it's a special school and has special teachers, and you pretty much know your child is going to be safe when they're there. Even though they ride the bus back and forth, these teachers are very careful. All of a sudden she was 22, or going to be 22, and Everhart was going to go away. And I had no clue as to what to do, absolutely no clue. Unfortunately, I started thinking that I was dumber than I thought I was right before she got to be 22. So, I started asking questions and I thought, "What can she possibly do? I can't have her come home. It's not that I don't want her at home, but she's going to be watching television and we can't have that." 

So, I just started ... I went to Goodwill to find out what they did, and I went to, I guess, the Agency for Persons with Disabilities and talked to them, talked to everybody I could think of. What do you do? And I talked to vocational rehab, and they said, "Well, we can find her a job, something she could do." So, we decided on that route. We decided that she would be at home and she would have a job. Summer started dragging through and vocational rehab and not done anything. I kept calling and they kept giving me an excuse, and finally they said, "Well, the trust is our secretary is out, and that form about Ruth is still sitting on the desk back there. It just needs to be typed and then we can move along." And I said, "I'll tell you what, this is Tuesday, if you don't have it typed by Friday, I'll be there. I'm a very good typist. I will get it typed for you." 

Cal Ogburn: This was a shock to me, too.

Lou Ogburn: Parents will do that. But, I could type. And a piece of type paper wasn't going to stand between Ruth and getting a job. So, it worked.

John Curry: Wait a minute, did you go type it or they did?

Lou Ogburn: No, they typed it. 

April Schoen: They managed to get it done.

John Curry: Well, let's don't leave people hanging on that one. 

Lou Ogburn: And vocational, in all fairness, they probably shouldn't have told me that, but they did make that mistake, and I did have a solution for that one. They found her a job at ... it was at McDonald's. And it was okay, it was a good starting job. McDonald's is kind of run by children, but it was good for Ruth. I can't remember quite what she did, I think she made salads or cleaned the lobby, it may be both. And she had a job coach, and one job coach ... That was such a new field or hiring the handicap, that her first job coach drove from Valdosta over here just to be a job coach in Tallahassee. 

April Schoen: Wow. 

Lou Ogburn: I think we went through three or four job coaches, and she worked there six years. The only bad part was there was no transportation, so I took her to work and I picked her up four hours later, every day that she went to work. Which is five days a week for those six years, or Cal had to take her, or somebody had to. So, it was very restrictive. You couldn't do anything. Fortunately, I worked at home, my job was an at home job out of our house, and I could do that. But, that also tired. I mean, even I was getting tired. The pay was very low, even though she was loyal, we weren't getting anywhere. She was obviously not going to be a management part of that, so we decided to change jobs.

We left McDonald's and went to a restaurant here that agreed to hire her. Again, we were working with job coaches through vocational rehab, and within the first six months she took a tumble and had broken out her two front teeth and they let her go. They said that she was still in the transition period and that they didn't have to keep her. And so, vocational backed them up and said we couldn't do anything, so we scrambled and found another job. Again, with the help of ... I think her brother, by this time, who was working for one of the Walmart stores in Jacksonville where he then lived. I think he was helpful in this, but we got her a job at the Walmart here, again with a job coach. And through a series of very good fortune she was able to work there 24 years. 

John Curry: That's a long time.

April Schoen: Long time.

Lou Ogburn: Long time. 

Cal Ogburn: Yep.

Lou Ogburn: And she didn't work full time, but she rode the bus to there, she rode the bus home. We went through probably 15 managers, we had some good ones, we had some great ones, we had a couple just really bad managers, but she made it through all of them.

John Curry: Talk a little bit about the transition as she's aging. I remember us talking about special needs trust, the legal issues. 

Lou Ogburn: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

John Curry: Talk a little bit about where this journey took you in learning about those type things, because it's not just about the care, it's about providing for her in the event that one of you or both of you should die. Talk about some of the things that you started learning because I just think it's fascinating, and other people would learn from this. 

Lou Ogburn: Okay. When we first realized that we would need to have some special money left for Ruth to take care of her for the rest of her life, I began to listen to people, talk to people, read about things, and realize there was something called a special needs trust. Set up under the federal tax code, I think, it's totally legal, it's administered by Social Security and it may be under their laws, I believe. And you can save money for a person who qualifies, who is considered intellectually or physically disabled, if they become disable before they're 26 years old, and you can save it in a special needs trust for anything but housing or food. It can be used for anything but housing or food, and the reason it can't be used for that is by this time the person who's disabled, is probably going to be getting SSI, which is Social Security ... Or SSDI, disability, or SSI ... There's two or three kinds of help that Social Security ... Depending on whether their parents worked, and they can get it off the parents work experience when they reach the age, I believe, of 22. 

So, we didn't apply for it when she was 22, I think we waited several years but then we did apply and she began to get a small check every month that she could use for whatever she needed to use it for. And then, when she went to work on her own, Social Security actually called me one day out of the blue and they said, "We are working on Ruth getting her own Social Security check based off her own work experience." So, I was amazed. That part I didn't know about. But, it turns out that because she had worked since she was 22 or 23, I believe, that she was eligible to draw a Social Security check as long as her work money didn't exceed a certain amount, and they realized she was disabled but she was working. 

So, she got what was called SSDI, and it was around 800 dollars. So, that is what supposedly would pay for her rent and her food, and then special needs could pick up everything but rent and food. 

April Schoen: Right, so if you have this special needs trust then the money that's inside the trust does not affect her federal benefits, then correct?

Lou Ogburn: That is correct, didn't affect the SSDI, that's the way it was set up. And so, that was helpful. At that point something came along called the Med Waiver Program, here we are again right at the right time in the right place in Tallahassee ... Or, Florida decided to use this program. Med Waiver stands for you're waiving their Medicaid benefits to let them live in the community, because a person who is very disabled ... I know the late state laws of Florida, anyway, can be put in an institution, and the state of Florida with pay for that. And it's very expensive, back then it was probably 90 thousand dollars a year, now it's probably 250 thousand dollars a year to institutionalize somebody. But, it's how the state handles the people who are disabled who can't take care of themselves.

Then the government said, "No, there's probably a better way. What if we waive that right? What if we have them wave that right and we give them money to live in the community? We help them live through a program called Medical Waiver, called Med Waiver for short? And we will pay for a supported living counselor, a supported living coach, maybe an employment counselor, and let them go live in the least restricting environment they can find and we will support them? That's how we keep them out of an institution, it's by supporting them this way."

Now, your SSDI will pay for your rent and your food and then if they're working they can pay the rest up. If they have a special needs trust, if their parents have been able to set that up or perhaps they have a special needs trust because they've been in an accident, and that's where they put the money. Then, you can have money from that to pay for your cable and maybe a television set, a nice little sofa or chair or something. I mean, or your bed, your furniture, whatever. That's what special needs trust can pay for. So, that is what I began to work at learning and Ruth was able to go under the Med Waiver program, so she got a roommate and an apartment and it was good. She lived away from us, but with supports. 

John Curry: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So, she had some more freedom and some independence? 

Lou Ogburn: She had freedom, independence, she was working, she rode the bus dollar ride back and forth to work. They picked her up at the door, they brought her home, and she had a roommate, and she had a very nice apartment. And that lasted maybe ten years, and the roommates' family was not terribly happy ... I mean, it didn't have anything to do with Ruth, they just moved so they moved her, too. And Ruth had decided at that time she didn't want a roommate, she wanted to live alone, which made it a little bit more difficult, but she had a job at Walmart so she could pay her rent and she could buy her food. And with her SSDI she could pay the rest of it, so without our help at all she was living on her own. 

John Curry: That's great. That's great. What advice would you offer people who find themselves in a situation similar? They have a young child, and they know it's going to be tough going forward, but they're not sure what to do? 

Lou Ogburn: Well, there are a lot of organizations that can help them, and depending on the child's disability. I would say you start with the Agency for Persons with Disabilities, they have a wealth of knowledge there, it's a state agency you just have to make an appointment. And you have to make sure your child is tested and qualifies for their services, that can be done as early as age three. Unfortunately, in Florida, the waiting list for full services through the agency is now at 20 thousand people.

John Curry: That's the waiting list?

Lou Ogburn: That's the waiting list. 

John Curry: Wow.

April Schoen: Wow.

John Curry: That's terrible.

Lou Ogburn: When Ruth got in they were begging for people to get in. That was 30 years ago, so you can see what's happened. So many people have moved to Florida, and there are a lot of disabled people who qualify for this program. So, we're very fortunate. Now, they have some partial ... ways to help, but not like Ruth. She has the full array of services and that's very unusual. But, in her age group, all of those in that age group, because they were right in on the ground floor of the Med Waiver program, did get the services they needed. In fact, I remember the first person saying, "Are you sure that's all the services you want?" 

Well, today you wouldn't do that because there are so many people needing and so little money to go around. But, last year ... The last about four or five years they've taken two or three thousand people off the wait list each year. The problem with doing that ... it started during the Bush administration, is he dumped in a bunch of money but the next year when they said, "Governor, how much money for APD? Agency for Persons with Disabilities?" He said, "We gave them money last year." 

That doesn't work. Once you put them on the rolls it's a reoccurring cost, year after year, after year. You have to factor that in. So, when they take someone off the wait list, it's just not for a year, it's for a lifetime.

April Schoen: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lou Ogburn: And Florida does not have the tax base or the money to do that, but we're trying. Every year we lobby to get some people off the wait list. Now, I tell you 20 thousand, that's 20 thousand people who are between the ages of 3 and however old they are. When they're in the public school system, before they age out at 22, that's probably the bottom of the list. In other words, they know they're having some care in the school system, so there's not the push to put them on the Med Waiver. It's when they reach age 22 and above that they really need to get on there.

And some parents are having a really hard time. They're aging out, and they're aging, and they can no longer care for their children. And they are one of the first groups. There's a priority list that the legislature has set and I think it's those people who are institutionalized coming out of institutions like Chattahoochee. They will get priority, or people who have absolutely no place to go. The parents have died, they're homeless.

April Schoen: Right.

Lou Ogburn: Those two categories get the top priority. And I think there's a third category, I'm not sure what that is, but the fourth category is with parents over 70 years of age. So, when they take them, they try to take into that fourth. 

John Curry: Which makes sense.

Lou Ogburn: It does make sense. 

John Curry: Because you've got to take care of them. 

Lou Ogburn: That's the right thing to do, is to take care of them.

John Curry: Yes.

April Schoen: Right. 

John Curry: Let's talk a little bit about the ... We've talked about the legal side, understanding what's available, understanding the rules and regulations, let's talk about the financial planning slash retirement planning side. Because for some people, if they don't ... most people have a hard enough time saving money when things are perfect, much less when they have a special needs situation like you're describing today. Talk about that. Along the way how did you deal with that? How did you come up with a plan to do all of the things that you have done, the two of you? To take care of her, but yet you still have your own security and freedom and you're not hurting financially because of taking care of her. 

So, walk us through that, what should people do?

Lou Ogburn: Well, because she had been under the program, the Med Waiver, and she has pretty much paid her own way up until now. Our fear is that as she gets older there will be more required of her care. In other words, she may have to go into an assisted living or something, and Med Waiver does not cover that. So, that would be a private pay type thing. I'm working on a state-wide committee right now to see what options are available for the aging ED population. Right now the options are to put them in what's called an ICF, which is money that comes out of general revenue. ICF is an intermediate care facility, and it's usually reserved for those people who are the most profoundly disabled. They're non-verbal, wheelchair, tube fed sometimes. Really cannot care for themselves, can't do any things.

And then the step down from that would be a group home, usually about six people in a facility with round the clock care, but there's always an awake person, there's no one that sleeps in the house, there's three shifts a day of eight hours. Or sometimes the shifts differ, but there's always an awake person in the house who takes care of six people. 

And then, from there it's the independent living like Ruth does in an apartment with a caregiver who comes in at night and is with her in case of an emergency, but during the day she depends on me. And she can, hopefully, take care of herself most of the time. 

And so those are your options right now. But, there are people looking everywhere to try to come up with more options.

John Curry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lou Ogburn: There's a project underway now to be looked at, and it's well underway, called Independence Landing, which is sort of an assisted living concept, I believe. Maybe more independent than assisted, maybe it's an independent living type facility where there will not be an assistant, and I don't know about the food, how the food is going to be done. But, this is going to be built in Tallahassee, there's a woman, Allison Tant, who's been instrumental in getting this done. And what we need are some options for the aging ED population. When they're younger they're more independent, as they age they become less independent. 

April Schoen: And Independence Landing, is that just going to be for persons with disabilities? Right, okay.

Lou Ogburn: It's my understanding, I don't know a lot about it.

April Schoen: Okay. 

John Curry: That's going to be an actual facility built here in Tallahassee?

Lou Ogburn: I think so, yes. 

John Curry: Nice.

Lou Ogburn: I'll let you know more as I know more. 

John Curry: I know you will because I learn so much every time we talk about this. 

Lou Ogburn: And before we move on, you asked about financial. And what you have to do, John, is just make yourself. You buy a life insurance policy, or you have to save a certain amount. And if you set up a special needs trust then you just save to that trust for your child. It's just a matter of saving, you have to be disciplined in order to save, just like you do for retirement. That's just a part of the retirement. 

About four or five years ago the state legislature ... Well, fortunately, there was a woman who was a housewife in Washington who had two children, and she said to her friend one day at the kitchen table, "I can save for one of my children who's totally normal. And the disabled one, I can't save for that one without ruining his benefits." And it just made her mad, so she went to the IRS to chat with them, and none of this was as simple as I'm making it, but they changed the IRS, the federal regulations, to say that you can save for a disabled child. If that child has become disabled before they're 26 and meets the criteria that APD, Agency for Persons with Disabilities, requires to be one of their clients.

So, then ABLE came along and Florida was the second or third state to adopt this program, that you can save up to 100 thousand dollars. It is tax free, and it can be used for almost anything including rent and food.

John Curry: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lou Ogburn: Bunch of regulations now because it is a trust fund. Up until just a few weeks ago it was invadable by Medicaid upon the persons' death. That has changed. Medicaid can now no longer invade this, it's always that persons, and it can be left in their will for a beneficiary. 

John Curry: That's news for me.

Lou Ogburn: That's new, that's new.

John Curry: So, that's just happened?

Lou Ogburn: I just heard that yesterday. Now, I have not verified, and I haven't read the law, but this is Florida law. 

John Curry: I knew it was being worked on, I didn't know that it passed.

Lou Ogburn: They got a one year reprieve and then this year the law passed.

John Curry: Okay. Wow, a lot of stuff here.

April Schoen: Yes.

John Curry: Any other questions pop up in your head as we're winding down here?

April Schoen: No. I mean, I was kind of glad that we covered the able accounts.

John Curry: Me too. Let's talk a little bit more about that. You're very active in educating people about these topics, so talk a little bit about what's out there if somebody who's listening what's to get involved. Tell them how they can get involved.

Lou Ogburn: Okay, I chair the family care counsel, which is the bridge between the Agency for Persons with Disabilities and those persons or their families that have the disabilities. And we are charged by the Governor, and each of my council members were appointed by the Governor, to be the educational tool that gives the people they education they need to know where to get these resources. We meet once a month, it's an open meeting, it's always published. I mean, if you want to come you just have to ask and you certainly can come. Nothing closed about it.

We run workshops, we've done workshops on special needs trust, on guardianship issues, on diet, and on the able trust. If you need a workshop we'd be happy to try to put one together for you. We always have the director of the regional ... Regional director for area two, which we are, of the Agency for Persons with Disabilities at our meetings. She's there, she can answer questions. And it's a good organization. We're all trained to try to find your answers, we may not be able to answer them as you ask them, but we know where to get the answers for you.

John Curry: Yes you do. 

April Schoen: How do they get more information about the family care council, is there a website?

Lou Ogburn: There is a website, yes.

April Schoen: Okay.

Lou Ogburn: Family care council, go to the Agency for Persons with Disabilities, and it's on that website. Or, you can just put in family care council

April Schoen: Perfect. Good. 

John Curry: You know, we had a small part to play in doing a seminar here in our training center. We should do that again because that is something where we can get more information out there and help you with that. 

Lou Ogburn: Great.

April Schoen: Mm-hmm (affirmative). We should.

John Curry: We should do that again.

Lou Ogburn: I think that people will do what they need to do if they know about it.

John Curry: Correct.

Lou Ogburn: They want help, and people were afraid of ABLE at first. ABLE stands for achieving a better lifestyle, I believe is what that stands for. People are afraid. They don't want to put their money somewhere that the state can take it. 

John Curry: Right.

Lou Ogburn: Because they do an invade trust and they can invade a special needs trust too, if it's a certain kind of special needs trust I think. But, because of this law, I don't believe you have to be afraid of that anymore. I think that they could put ... A woman yesterday at my meeting said, "I only put two thousand in my daughters because I was afraid she would lose it, we would lose it, if something happened to her." And now she said she would want to put more. 

John Curry: That's good.

Lou Ogburn: 100 thousand dollars will go a long way if you have other sources of income toward paying rent for someone. 

John Curry: Yes. Do you think a day will come where that increases the cap more than 100 thousand? Surely you will with cost of living and expenses?

Lou Ogburn: Probably. You never know what they are going to do. You can do it now, it's just that every increase you have in that you do lose some of your other benefits. 

John Curry: Right, right. Well, I've been looking forward to this. I thank you for taking the time to share with us, and our listeners because there're people out there who will benefit tremendously knowing ... Just hearing your words of encouragement, number one, but also knowing where to go. And what I've always been impressed with is you learn but then you go teach. You don't just keep the information to yourself, you help a lot of other people. You've probably indirectly helped tens of thousands of people because of your dedication to this. 

Lou Ogburn: Well, thank you. That was very kind. And that's kind of what people are here to ... excuse me, to help other people. So, I'm happy to do it and thank you for talking to me today.

John Curry: You're very welcome. You just reminded me of something I'm reading in a book, it's called The Art of Aging, and in chapter three the author talks about Dr. Michael Debakey, who did the first heart transplant, successful one. And it came down at age 96 they were asking him questions like, "What is it that's made you different in your career?" And his wife stepped up and said, "I can answer that, it's one word, it's love. He loves his patients and his patients love him." And I thought about that and over my career, once I got to the point where it wasn't just about work and making money, it was that, "Okay, you're like a shepherd protecting your flock, and you can learn but you have an obligation that once you learn you teach others," that I really understood that. 

And that book reminded me of that in the sense that you love what you do, you've got a big heart, and you're out there helping a lot of people. Both of you are. 

Lou Ogburn: Well, thank you. 

John Curry: Thank you for being with us today. 

Folks, I hope you've enjoyed this. Any questions about special needs or anything let us know and we'll guide you as best we can, too. Thank you very much. 

April Schoen: Thank you!

Voice Over: If you would like to know more about John Curry Services you can request a complementary information package by visiting JohnHCurry.com/podcast. Again, that is JohnHCurry.com/podcast, or you can call his office at 850-562-300. Again, that is 850-562-3000. John H Curry, Charted Life Underwriter, Charter Financial Consultant, accredited estate planner, Masters in Science and Financial services, certified in long-term care, registered representative and financial advisor of Park Avenue Securities LLC. Securities products and services and advisory services are offered through Park Avenue Securities, a registered broker dealer and investment advisor. Financial representative of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York.

Park Avenue Securities is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Guardian. No Florida financial corporation is not an affiliate or subsidiary of Park Avenue Securities. Park Avenue Securities is a member of FINRA and SIPC. This material is intended for general public use. By providing this material we are not undertaking to provide investment advice for any special individual or situation, or to otherwise act in a fiduciary capacity. Please contact one of our financial professionals for guidance and information specific to your individual situation. All investments contain risk and may lose value. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results.

Guardian, its subsidiaries, agents, or employees do not provide legal, tax, or accounting advice. Please consult with your attorney, accountant, and or tax advisor for advice concerning your particular circumstances. Not affiliated with the Florida retirement system. The Living Balance Sheet and the Living Balance Sheet logo are registered service marks of the Guardian Life Insurance Company of America, New York, New York. Copyright 2005-2018. This podcast is for informational purposes only. Guest speakers and their firms are not affiliated with, or endorsed by Park Avenue Securities or Guardian, and opinions stated are their own. 

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